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Why I won't implement full motion controls in my mods
🕑 Added 2021-06-07 08:41:26 +0000 UTCI'm making this post public (as opposed to Patrons-only) so that new users can make an informed decision before they possibly join my Patreon.
My aim with this series of R.E.A.L. VR mods has always been to stay as faithful as possible to the original spirit and gameplay of the games that I port to VR. I want to enable other people (and myself!) to experience those beautiful virtual worlds from the inside, as if you were really there, but at the same time I strive to keep intact the narrative flow and interaction model that the game designers intended.
Take-Two and Rockstar, with their L.A. Noire: The VR Case Files experiment, explored the opposite approach: completely redesign the game so that it would adhere to the paradigm of what VR is "supposed" to be, i.e., with full motion controls and all kinds of comfort options. I played it of course, and really tried to make myself like it... but I couldn't. Besides being a commercial fiasco (which marked an important setback for the VR games industry), the conversion felt clunky and unwieldy, and even with their immense financial resources, they had to cut too many corners for the resulting product to be enjoyable.
The story was butchered (only a small portion of the missions were converted), and what was left was disjointed and hardly engaging. The graphics were dialed down so much to meet frame rate requirements that the game ended up looking like it had come out 10 years earlier; just compare a drive through the city at night in the original game and in the VR release to see what I mean. The motion controls implementation, despite being done by a whole team of people with access to the original animations, assets, source code and everything, was heavily criticized and just didn't feel right. It did offer good caricature material for silly YouTube videos, but choices like having to drive your car with imaginary hands on an imaginary wheel made for a frustrating and ultimately unfun experience.
Games like Half-Life: Alyx are a completely different story of course. They are designed from the ground up around VR interactions. All the physics, animations and character models are built with motion controls in mind (and yet, even with Valve's basically limitless resources, all we get are floating hands without a character body).
As a single developer, with the ambition of converting several huge, open-world AAA games to VR, and with a profound respect for the way those games were originally designed and intended to be played, I don't have the luxury of dedicating several man-years to properly implement motion controls.
A "proper" implementation would be a rabbit hole from which I would never emerge. I will imagine a possible scenario for RDR2, just to give you an idea. The ridiculously easy part would be mapping the motion controls buttons to the game inputs, and having the VR runtime report to me the motion controls position in space. That would only take a few hours, or days at most.
Then the first unsolvable problem would crop up: RDR2 maps a lot of functions to the D-Pad buttons, which are absent on all motion controls that I know of. A clunky workaround was proposed by Oculus, where the D-Pad can be emulated with one of the two thumbsticks, but that wouldn't work for RDR2 because the game already needs and uses both sticks for several different functions. But let's assume that by some awkward combination of buttons and complex gestures we somehow manage to simulate D-Pad input from the motion controls.
At this point the gun position must be tied to the motion control position in space. Flat games usually don't even tie the gun model to the character body; it's just a disembodied hand that gives the illusion of being attached to your body because of forced perspective. By freeing up the gun position in space, the illusion would break, and you would need to disable the character body being drawn (which was the approach taken by the old grandtheftvr mod by Crayfishery). I personally dislike this approach and find that it detracts from immersion, but let's push on anyway.
Now there's the matter of two-handed weapons like rifles and shotguns. Flat games don't implement any special treatment for them, because they are still tied to the camera exactly like normal guns. In VR, people expect two-handed weapons to obey some sort of strange physics where the gun kind of aligns in space with the imaginary line connecting the two controllers. Apart from the fact that I find that ugly and much harder to use than gaze-based aiming, even in native VR titles, let's again imagine that we can successfully mod the necessary physics into the game.
Then people request proper bow aiming. In flat games, the tension of the string cannot be controlled progressively: it's just a fixed animation where it takes a certain amount of time for the string to go from slack to taut. So somehow we would need to take control of that animation and tie it to the motion control position in space, and modulate the arrow speed and trajectory accordingly.
Then players want every object in the game interactable with your hands. Again, the "grab stuff" animation in games like RDR2 is completely driven by the game itself. Some objects are scripted to trigger the animation, others aren't. When the character successfully grabs an object, the item then follows a scripted path, and at some point is shown to enter a bag or pocket or simply disappears. We would need to somehow rewrite this whole portion of the game physics and interaction model to allow the grab gesture on motion controls to move objects, and implement some holster or backpack mechanics in order to store them once they've been fetched.
And so on, and so forth. Driving vehicles. Climbing ladders. Pushing NPCs. Melee combat. Inventory browsing. Turning pages in books. It's never-ending madness. It's a complete redesign and reworking of the whole game.
I don't want to go down this path. So that's why I decided to draw the line at "no motion controls" :-)
Comments
LukeRoss
That would be helpful for the D-Pad issue, but most of my users like to play seated or at least always facing more or less the same direction to avoid getting all tangled up in the cable, so the right stick is still needed to turn the camera horizontally (and for third person games, also to move it up and down)
will gibson
or maybe use the right stick as the d pad and we can turn our heads cause thats what vr is about
Looper the GameCat
> Take-Two and Rockstar, with their L.A. Noire: The VR Case Files experiment, explored the opposite approach: completely redesign the game so that it would adhere to the paradigm of what VR is "supposed" to be, i.e., with full motion controls and all kinds of comfort options L.A. Noire may not be the worst example of this approach (punching feels dope, and face models are better than in most other VR games), but it's most definitely not the best one. There are much more successful examples like Skyrim, No Man's Sky, Borderlands 2, Hitman trilogy, RE4. Of course I understand that it requires tons of resources you don't have, it's just incorrect to use L.A Noire flaws to prove the approach wrong My favorite VR game (RE7) uses head aiming though, so I don't really mind
Samir
Agreed! I have been checking daily in hopes for the next version of RDR2 with the shimmering fix! Totally understand that these things take time but it would help me manage my excitement if I got an update.
Brandon(Post Maester)
I think with medium and large projects it might be a good idea to give some kind of tentative time frame. I know that is probably difficult but some kind of time frame with like a weekly update would be nice. Although, now that I think about it, if you post that the next release is 2 months out people might just unsubscribe in between :). Maybe just an update every week or few days?
Cercata
Agree, I really want Cyberpunk, but it's maybe too soon ...
Tormod Brynestad
Indeed, anyways I wasn’t expecting an answer, but it doesn’t hurt to ask
LukeRoss
That's a weird bug! I never saw it during my playthrough.
Tormod Brynestad
C bug? I think its a major problem, it slowes down the game a bunch and doubles the time on a horse back instead of in the action
Clint
Yes, I've noticed this as well. I didn't really think it was a bug until you mentioned it now. I would say it's a "C" bug at best. Still pretty interesting though.
Tormod Brynestad
Anyone else have to sleep between each mission to update the story misions, when starting the game is might have 3 missions available, but after finnishing one there are only side missions left, and then when sleeping the previus and new missions show. Pretty sure this is not supposed to happen since it started in chapter two, im at chapter 3 atm.
Tarun Charaipotra
Totally agree with you, LukeRoss. I feel like your core Patron audience is probably largely okay with 'hybrid VR,' especially if it's that vs. no VR at all! Motion controls are ideal, but in next-gen, complex games with multiple mechanics that weren't built for them like the ones you tend to work on (GTA V and all its different vehicle controls, etc), they're often awkward and not immersive due to clunky implementation. That can often alter the difficulty and balance of the game too, depending on if the motion controls make the game easier or harder. With that said, the Beef ports of FPS games with simple mechanics like Doom 3 or HL1 really do shine with that extra layer. The games I would love to see next, CP2077 and RE7, would fall into the complex mechanics category. But food for thought: if you do decide to port a game to VR with motion controls in the future, please consider Portal 1 or 2!
WIG
Just some thoughts on Cyberpunk. Devs are still doing a lot of updates so any work you do on it may be broken with updates. Might be worth tackling something that has been out longer and more stable.
ferrero man
I dont care for motion controls, would be cool to be able to emulate the xbox 360 controller with the index controllers or something, other than that I would rather get VR than anything else
Cercata
And people with that misconception are very noisy about it, and attack every VR project that is not what they say ... it's awfull, imagine that in flat gamming people would attack every game that is not 3D, or that is not 1st person ...
Billy Bloggs
Yep, the idea that VR requires you to wildly flail around and interact in a real way with every object, in every conceivable way, every time is a huge misconception around VR. Sometimes you just wanna sit and play. For me, VR brings a sense of scale, immersion and depth to the world, which is often all I'm looking for. Games like Senua's Sacrifice and Chronos (even Lucky's Tale) have been amazing experiences, no VR controller required. Not everything needs motion controls. OG Rift didn't even ship with them! Keep doing what your doing. Bring on Cyberpunk :)
andy lee
Yes, would it be great to have those games VR.
Cercata
Sometime it breaks the immersion less than touch games ... With touch games each time you have have a collision, or you don't respect the intertia of heavy items, etc etc, it's immersion breaking.
Brandon(Post Maester)
I'm totally good with a controller myself, does not at all break the immersion for me.
Samir
Totally get it! I may be in the minority but I actually don't mind playing games like this with a controller especially since it's a mod. Really appreciate all the hard work! Like a lot of other folks I'd love to see CP2077 next and I am excited for a potential fix for the shimmering in RDR2.
VRicken
Completely understandable! PS: if you decide to work on another VR mod soon, may I suggest Cyberpunk 2077 :)
LukeRoss
Thanks for your kind words!!! I wasn't involved in the creation of the YAW VR game plugin for GTA V, usually Yaw VR Ltd take care of that themselves. If there is enough interest, I don't see why they shouldn't create a plugin for RDR2 too! If they need anything from me you can tell them to contact me
Tom WB
Dude I just wanted to say thank you- been enjoying this mod for the last week and it's probably the most immersed Ive felt in any game except Alyx so far. You've done a cracking job, my only complaint is that this mod derailed my progress in GTA V with your other mod :) I have backed the YAW 2 chair and I'm interested to know whether it'll be possible to have motion in this game too like GTA V- getting the chair to move when riding a horse would be so immersive
Matt van Andel
I understand what you're saying, but missing buttons can be dealt with via gestures. And personally, I don't mind disembodied weapons floating around. I don't need or expect a first-rate motion control port (e.g. Alyx) - but I do REALLY want to be able to point and shoot with my hand rather than my head. I personally don't like the two-handed aiming anyway, so single-handed aiming with large guns like rifles is also perfectly fine with me. It means I can use the Touch controllers almost like a mouse. My recommendation is to use the Touch controllers like a virtual gamepad, but with support for decoupled hand-aiming, and replace some of the button binds with gestures... like reload (right hand snap gun downward), draw/holster (right hand reach over should), aim (right hand raise gun), journal (left hand over shoulder). And there you have it - you've freed up at least four bindings for other, less gesture-friendly functions.
Ángel Moreno Alcalá
I prefer that you don't spend time adapting motion controls. I prefer enjoy the beautiful AAA games environments in VR. I dream of seeing VR environments of games like Cyberpunk 2077, Horizon, Alan Wake !!!, Tomb Raider !! Thanks for your amazing work!
Cercata
Yes, after many patches it's now "playable" LA Noire VR ... but well bellow what we expect from R* I gave it a good review on Steam, but we are only 54%
Rolf
Yup. After finishing both subnautica games, Alien and GTAV in VR with an Xbox controller this is my stance as well. I'm not sure that a lot of the people that demand motion controls actually have any idea what that experience would be like.
stoniVR
For me nothing beats motion controls. Shooting in VR is so satisfying. Look we really love your mods Luke and playing with motion controls is not always necessary and it is acceptable, be course there are the biggest Games and driving with steering wheel in GTA VR is immersive like playing with motion controls, but i don´t hope this is getting the norm VR Games without motion controls. I know this type of VR mods will not work with many Games. You need a 3D Body cam real first person view etc. I bought La noire this year and it was great they fix the shit out maybe and make it in my opinion more or less good playable. I was actually impressed how they manage driving and playing standing at the same time for 2017. The recenter method sucks its would be maybe much better nowadays. But yes i get your points why you not like it. They should at least put option how everyone wants to play like steering with sticks would be a good option. greets :)
Emile Tixeuil
Do i have to say it again ? Nope, but i kinda like it. Reading this makes me feel we r on the same page. Never gonna delete my patreon ever 😍
Greyhaim
I have personally found motion control a bit hit and miss really, and i am not that keen on the floaty hands but no body thing. For me the amazing things is actually being within the game world, seeing all the details. When i got the GTA 5 VR mod i just went for a walk around Los Santos. I was totally blown away. I also think that most VR games, even the good ones, are over fairly quickly compared to the standard big AAA game. So having the chance to exist within games like GTA and RDR2......its a brilliant way to do VR.
LukeRoss
That's an interesting idea, but tbh I would have no clue about how to detect when an animal is being skinned (also a quick search on modding sites listing discovered animations turned up empty)
WIG
Like Forza that recently came to steam hmm
Marlec
I have been following VR mods for years & totally understand that modding motion controls into a game is an immense complex task. If Rockstar struggle with it then what chance does a modder have. I never expected you to do this Luke. I`m just very happy i can play/view in VR. Are racing games (fixed position in car) easier to mod to VR than say RDR Luke?
FlyingWaffle
The way the game takes control of the first person camera when skinning animals can get rough very quickly. What I sometimes do is manually switch to third person during the skinning, and then revert to first person view when it's done, but that takes about 4 button presses. Would it be feasible to do this automatically with the mod?
Justin Davis
I happily beat LA Noire VR but refunded RDR2 after trying this mod a few times with various settings. The lack of motion controls is the last issue. The alternate eye rendering and poor performance are way more important.
FlyingWaffle
Yea, I can't really imagine how you could inject full motion control in such a game. And Rockstar always tends to really complicate the interactions by relying on so many button presses. Supporting free aiming with two handed weapons (rifles) is also pretty complicated (games like Fallout 4 VR totally bypassed it), and it would also be pretty hard to hit anything this way in the game, because it relies so much on precision shooting, unlike something like Skyrim VR or Fallout 4 VR, where ammunition is plenty and the aiming can be much looser.
LukeRoss
:-)
Matt
Sorry yep your right lol forgot I need those. I'll stick with the xbox controller.
LukeRoss
And what would you map the shoulder buttons to?
Matt
Could we use the touch controllers instead of the xbox controller and map dpad down to left grip and dpad right to right grip. I dont need no motion controls but having to take my xbox controller around is a little annoying
Joe Vandelay
I, and I believe a vast group of silent like minded people, really don't care for motion control. We want to experience deep games in 3D. Motion controls are often a gimmick and just not fun for me...
WIG
I have been having a blast with both your GTA V and RDR2. It has actually been quite nice to sit down and chill. I think for me the most important things for VR is full 3D and good world scale and full positional head tracking. I fully understand your stance and can enjoy to play games that way. Just being able to have full 3D ,positional tracking and freely look around at all the cool details blew my mind. In both GTA and RDR2 when I first booted up in VR As soon as I was in game. I got chills. Especially RDR2 with all the moody lighting and looking at an NPC eyes as their eyes follow you with such realistic faces. Cheers
LukeRoss
Why would I ever want to prevent that? For context, my free GTA V mod interops really nicely with ikt's excellent Manual Transmission mod, or with motion simulators like Yaw VR or the VRMECO VR chair. However, my GTA V mod has been out since Oct 2019 and no other modder has ever tried implementing even basic support for motion controls as an add-in or independent modification, so I don't believe there's much interest in the modding community
Cercata
I totally agree, adding motion controls to games as complex as RDR2 would be a task for several programmers even having the source code. But for LA Noire, I think it could have been done much better, I hope rockstar will do better in future games. Some things were amazing, the best inversise kinematiks I have ever seen in a VR game, but things that should be simple like locomotion, were awfull in the begining, mediocre after several updates.
Jarrod Matheson
If I'd needed convincing, your article would have done just that. Very in-depth breakdown of why motion controls aren't viable. Kinda makes you say 'oh yeahhh'. It's the dream of being in those worlds that you make possible. Like when I first used google cardboard to walk around Ethan Carter's universe long before the official VR version. But still then, it was always about just 'being there'.
Dale
My only hope is that if someone were to create a mod that would implement some basic motion controls and work in tandem with your VR mod that you wouldn't take steps to prevent it from happening. Your reasoning behind this decision is solid, but I hope someone will at least bring one handed motion control aiming to the game somewhere down the line.
LukeRoss
Wish I could like your comment twice! One of the most intense and moving experiences I've ever had in VR was Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice, and it was gamepad-only and 3rd person :-)
Robert S Martin
I am not as down on things like motion controlled guns as you are, but I 100% agree that if a game wasn't implemented originally with VR in mind then a mod is not going to get there. Alyx is amazing, and I want more games like that. But that doesn't mean mods of these big games using a gamepad are bad. In fact some of the most fun I have had in VR is games like Subnautica with a gamepad. It is a wonderful experience. So yeah....make them work in VR but don't worry about controls. I am happy with that.
Toshie27
Playing with the controller is enough for me
Kris Van de Vijver
"experiencing those beautiful virtual worlds from the inside, as if you were really there"... exactly!! This is what VR is all about. Hand-tracking is way overrated! Sure, it's a great thing if you have it and if it works really well (Alyx, etc), but for me, it's not a top priority. An amazing world to *be* in, and a great story/game, this is what matters. In other words : the content matters, and not the mechanical/simulation stuff. If the game is great, a non-hand-tracked VR game played with gamepad can be mindblowing and some of these are in my all-time favorite VR game list.
NaJi3D
Please make an LA Noire VR mod, as the rockstar version is totally wrong.
NaJi3D
I beleive that VR is meant for relaxation, motion controls are only good for fitness VR games.
