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Testimonials from 2 Sugar Babies
🕑 Added 2019-10-24 11:12:35 +0000 UTCHere are two emails I received from real life sugar babies explaining their lifestyle
Let me just brain dump a bunch of what I can share that might be relevant, bearing in mind that I'm not exactly your "typical" sugar baby (so I hear from dudes as well) but am insatiably curious about this and have had many conversations with these dates and other women over the years...
- There's a continuum between "pay for play"/"pay per meet" which I would pretty much call thinly veiled escorting, and "long term exclusive"/"marriage minded" and even non-sexual companion relationships (which is rare but not unheard of). Also, cash vs gifts/travel is a big dividing line. I've been operating sort of in the middle of the spectrum, where I'm happy to sleep with someone I feel a safe, genuine connection with who has long-term interests, and have spent a couple of meal/drinks dates with getting to know them, and as long as there are terms discussed up front. I've had perhaps 9-10 "arrangements" like this over the years, with 3-4 of them being one-time where we just mutually didn't click that well and never really followed up, and the rest lasting months to a year or more.
I don't exactly advertise that I am pursuing multiple relationships, but I am truthful if asked. Non-monogamous to the core, as I've tried to openly be in relationships since I realized this as a teenager. FWIW, I'm divorced and generally had a steady nesting partner in life rather than casually dating... while very sexually open, I've had only about a dozen non-sugaring male sexual partners in my 37 years of life, so I guess this is approaching the same total at this point ;) I'd say the introduction of this relationship dynamic basically just speeds up intimacy and there's no dancing around expectations of the relationship. I know they are there because they have more money than time, and they know I am there because the inverse is true for me. They don't have time to go out on several dates with numerous women in order to get laid semi-regularly, or have been totally striking out for years. There's also a strong mentoring aspect to it. Lots of these men especially in the Bay Area are in tech or business or finance, and many of the women are looking for career guidance or industry connections perhaps even more than luxury gifts. Many men's ads say "no pros" and they want a genuinely loving relationship, not just a hookup. - The line I have gotta hear more than anything else is "I love my wife, but..." As in, they're in their 30-60s and don't want to get divorced for whatever reason, but the intimacy/kink/etc isn't there in the way they'd like. One guy in his late 30s I saw for a long time said his wife approved of him having sex with women outside the marriage, but only if he paid for it (ostensibly to maintain emotional distance), which I found fascinating and not unheard of in the space since. They're more happily divorced now. My ex-husband was older than me and I've had a fairly substantial amount of life experience, and generally find dating older men more satisfying, so this has been a natural fit for me. Of course many guys are there because they want to date the hottest, youngest women so I am excluded from a lot of searches ;) Like you mentioned in your video, I worry that many of especially the younger women on there aren't fully aware of putting themselves in potentially risky situation. But really, is it more risky than a one night stand you meet in a bar? It's a different kind of risk, often out of desperation for cash or fancy things, and I think inexperienced women are probably more willing to go along with overriding their boundaries or spidey sense because of that. I worry that there are men particularly good at plying girls with drinks or using psychological strategies to move things forward, but again, I just hope we're all learning and being smart enough about it.
- The concept and website itself have had a LOT more press over the years (I'm comparing 2013-14 to 2019) and it's changed the tone significantly. I think more guys have been burned now by women demanding monthly allowances and then ghosting. There used to actually be dropdown fields for expected monthly allowance, for example, starting (I think) at <$500 and going up to $10k+. It's muddied the waters. If they haven't brought up anything related to "gifts" or some kind of "exchange" by the second date, I will usually try to. Unclear if he was attempting to be manipulative or genuinely clueless, but one guy I went out with a couple of months ago (breaking my own soft rule to not meet men only in town briefly for travel, because his background as a game theory professor intrigued me) was apparently surprised and slightly offended I was expecting some kind of compensation. It set an uncomfortable tone, so I ended the date.
- Back in 2013-14, one of my ongoing arrangements was actually with someone I'd call a household name, and two were senior VP or C-level execs at public tech companies. Two of these three men I'd say would have a lot of difficulty dating "normally". They were interpersonally awkward, detached, and I bet have been burned by women taking advantage of them for the money, putting up with in one case a psychologically wounded narcissist (not in the aggressive sense, just in the "let me talk about career achievements and my parents approval and Important Things in my condo for hours every time we meet" sense) in his 60s. I think in these cases we'd rather have all our cards on the table, be clear about expectations and compensation, knowing both parties are enthusiastic and there's no pretense about what's happening.
TBH, I'm not currently looking for a serious relationship right now, so my sweet spot is busy tech execs (because I like to talk tech/biz and have the background for it even if I'm trying to get out of the field) who are looking for someone smart, beautiful, and interesting they actually want to talk with over a luxurious dinner on a semi-regular basis, and know they'll get laid if they ask and "donate" accordingly ;) No more, no less. Yes, there's a lot of wink-wink type talk, usually in person, although I've known some guys who bring it up in chat. One guy I had a couple of dates with last month mentioned how he has a soft spot for helping out single moms. Some of these men do have a bit of a white knight complex, don't actually live that luxuriously, and a few hundred to a few thousand dollars a month towards their favorite extracurricular activity is no biggie. Some probably respond more to a sob story of needing money, and some are more into a woman with an established career and/or concrete goals. - An IRL friend of mine also did this for most of a year and had a VERY different approach. I'm much more of an introvert and concerned with establishing a connection/relationship before there's any plans of bedroom/hotel time. I'm just not comfortable otherwise and it doesn't feel genuine. However, she's a super extrovert, bold, scattered, and hyper-sexual being who has the energy of a freaking rabbit while trying to fund her startup, and happy to enjoy sleeping with most of the men she meets from the site, asking for money afterwards. She's much more concerned with their physical attractiveness and sexual satisfaction and doesn't get too disappointed when things don't pan out. I honestly care very little about that and am more interested in being relaxed and stimulating conversation. She's kind of more of the "I'll take what I get" type when it comes to money, but I treat mine like a business deal with the terms at least mentioned in advance. Not like I have much recourse if someone doesn't pay me, so a lot is operating on trust. Neither is "wrong" of course, but I found the contrast pretty striking. In ongoing relationships, I've made anywhere from $500 for a hotel meet plus fancy dinner, to $1800 for a couple hours at his place. Often guys want to do no condoms, but I treat this exactly as I would in terms of someone I met outside of Seeking -- not until there's trust and open discussion of test results :)
- I love bringing this up in social situations if I feel comfortable. "What do you do?" "Oh I'm a sex worker" etc. I live in a unique community with a lot of openly sexual, progressive, Burning Man, etc type folks in San Francisco who may have been to orgies or play parties before, so my social situations may be a little skewed ;) But it's brought about some great conversations, including I'd say about 1/3 of women in their 20s-30s who when I mention being a sugar baby, say either "oh I've done that!" or "oh I've thought about doing that!". Sex work, sending nudes, etc is much more normalized in younger generations and the judgment is perhaps lessening, but still, I'm uncommonly open about it. However, I'd say it's split pretty evenly between women who would agree it's "sex work" and women who are more casually of the mentality that they want him to pay for all the expensive dates and some nice gifts or trips and don't consider it that kind of "work" at all.
- I'm trying to steer this brain dump back to what I think you and your audience might like to know... I agree that the widespread nature of it is probably the most surprising to some. Really though, for the majority of relationships, it's either a mask for straight up escorting services, or just codifying the kind of financially imbalanced relationship dynamic that has existed since the dawn of procreation. This "gig" has been strongly motivating for me to study psychology in greater depth and want to help people, because so many men seem to struggle with opening up and getting emotional support unless it is someone they are sleeping with. I feel like much of the value of what I do is in the supportive, you-focused pillow talk rather than the actual sex. But so many men are looking for a travel companion or even a future wife. Given my genuine compassion for connecting with truly awkward or lonely penguins, I consider it a high value service needed in the world and worth my price tag.
- Strategies for men? The better you are at reading the room and talking at the right level of explicitness vs read-between-the-lines, the easier this will be. I suspect a lot of men have an easier time (whether this is fooling themselves or not, I'll leave as an exercise for the reader...) "ordering a prostitute" through something like Seeking.com than other means. That being said, expect some potentially awkward situations and slightly mismatched expectations. Use your ad to hint at the kind of relationship you're expecting. When I see words like "allowance" and "X times per month", I get a clear expectation that they are comfortable with the transactional elements. But some women will be scared off if you start putting dollar amounts in messages or anything that has a whiff of being paid for sex. Really, it's just like any dating website, just with this additional element, and you'll get out of it what you put into it. It can be no less "real" in terms of relationship quality than meeting through any other means, if you're lucky! Meeting quickly is generally your best bet, even if it's just for coffee, because there's nothing like an in-person chemistry check and making sure the person you're drooling over in the ad matches reality. I get the impression that there's even MORE of a gap between some people's presentation of self and in-person self than in traditional dating. I've heard some horror stories, and it makes sense, since the stakes are higher and there's often more desperation at play.
- It does suck that this is another way of emphasizing how the income gap and physical attractiveness separates what kind of relationship is attainable for both parties in life. I can hear the lament of men who think they don't have either the looks nor spare ~$1k+/month to think about approaching this kind of relationship. But I'm just happy there's another possible avenue out there, and trust me when I say that it's not a silver bullet to solve your life's problems, on either end. However, if you have the income and want more of a "low effort girlfriend" where the expectation is that you don't have to deal with much in the way of her emotional needs to keep the intimacy going ("no drama" is another line I see a lot in ads), it can be a great approach. Just read between the lines and be honest (with yourself, and each other) and smart and safe. Sugar babies are usually not smooth-talking pros. Just like any other dating site, there's usually many different types of people, and hopefully something for everyone.
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Alexander,
I watch your videos during my commute. I recently caught your episode on Sugar Babies and I wanted to share some insights. Please keep me anonymous, thank you. (Explicitly: permission to use any of this is reliant on keeping me anonymous.)
My name is BLANK, and I was an American sugar-baby. I can answer most of your questions honestly since very little has changed in the last few years. (I still know girls in the lifestyle.)
I'm not doing a formal presentation so this is mostly stream-of-thought. I do apologize if this makes my thoughts seem random, but sometimes they are.
I started my sugar life while I was attending university in a large American city. Friends of mine were doing it and it seemed like a rewarding and fulfilling way to get validation and get someone else to handle some of the stresses and burdens in my life.
When I completed my degree work, I used my connections to acquire a reasonable starting position. From that point onward, I dropped the sugar life and have earned everything since then. I still meet up with some of my Daddies, for fun, but that's all there is to it.
Being a sugar baby isn't about being a prostitute in the typical definition. It's about being my best self and using that to help someone else become a better, happier person. (Yes, I know how it sounds. But at its core, that is what this is about.)
My first sugar daddy was a professor at my university. I was never a student of his (to avoid any potential conflicts of interest). He helped me by tutoring me and covering a few bills. I provided him with some eye candy and open feedback - I always presented my best self around him, and I would tell him (very honestly) what modern students really thought about his 'banter' and 'humor' that he would add with his lectures. (For fun, sometimes I'd study semi-nude, just to wind him up. He was married so there was NOTHING done which would risk that marriage; not even a kiss on the cheek.)
I had other sugar daddy arrangements which did get sexual, but it was because I wanted to and not out of some obligation. (...though friends have.)
You wanted to know about money, and I will address that shortly, but there are a few points which must be understood, first. In prostitution, the rules and expectations are spelled out plainly and honestly. In sugar life, there is a lot more nuance to the rules and expectations; it's a lot closer to "girlfriend of convenience" than "whore".
The understanding is that both people are providing services to each other, and neither is desperate or risking anything. The sugar baby *could* be spending her time with a different Daddy while he *could* be spending his resources on a different Baby. Neither one wants to be passed up, but both know there are other options. It's about the convenience of everything.
There's so little emotional involvement but there is a degree of trust... to a point, of course.
The Daddy gets to flex his pride and show off his resources and brag and be the man he wants to be, but society or environment (work, usually) won't allow.
The Baby gets to feel beautiful and appreciated in a way that society and peers (and feminism) won't allow.
The sugar life feeds into something very primal and non-PC - but with a hint of class and without heading into caveman culture.
As for compensation, with some of my Daddies I was taken out to nice restaurants or given nice clothes with him getting to have the company of a smart, well-read companion who happens to be attractive. (And in the case of clothing, jewelry, etc the Daddy gets to see it modeled for him... however he likes.)
For me, most of the Daddies would have the decency to remember I needed compensation and would ask if there's anything they can do to "help" me with something. If I had a bill, debt, or other issue I would mention it and he'd take care of it. (In one case, I mentioned my car payment was due and the Daddy paid off the remaining loan.)
In the cases of Lazy Daddies, I would mention (very casually, of course) something burdening me. If he didn't take care of *something* or otherwise make my investment of time worthwhile, then I wouldn't make myself available to him. Usually, they would get the hint and step up, or they stepped away.
It wasn't all roses and wine, of course. Sometimes there was a distinct lack of chemistry and things didn't work out. Or the guy was not interested in a mutually beneficial arrangement. Those cases were typically resolved with everyone being mature. (Not always, sadly.)
I hope this resolves some of your questions. If you have further questions, ask and I will likely answer. Please be aware that this is a junk email account and not checked very often.
PLEASE KEEP MY NAME AND OTHER INFO ANONYMOUS. Thank you.
Comments
Blair
Well put, and I think you’re right. Three years ago I was ‘blue pill’ and unnecessarily morality-focused, and I would have found this argument wrong wrong wrong. Now I accept it.
Margaret
I did say "reproductive drive" rather than "reproduction" on purpose. I was referring to the hormone and instinct-fueled mating drive, not the conscious intention to procreate. But I'll definitely look for that title. Sounds interesting!
Hristo
You said this: "But we can't escape the fact that reproductive drive is the underlying motivation for most personal, professional and financial improvement". Yes. However, specifically, those sugar daddies are financially secure professional accomplished, right? They know reproduction is out of the question. Then why do it? There is a book called "why men are the way they are". Read it. It will give you are great insight as to why those types of men do this. I promise, it has little to do with reproducing and more to do with fantasies
Hristo
I'm reminded of a story about a triangle between a French sugar babe, Paulo Coelho and a friend of mine. That's the highest level of hookering.
Hristo
In did say reproduction is the main drive. I know the following, when we are in psychological pain(low intensity) the brain can distort signals from the body. Often certain psychological needs get translated through sexual desire. But actually it's not about sex, its about avoiding yourself and what you are. Yesterday I was walkimg home and a young woman came from across the road, towards me. She spoke in good English with thick French accent. She asked me for an address and wished that I locate it because her phone is dying. I agreed. We located it. It was not far off from where we were but it was dark. I show her the map while looking at her. She looks uncertain. I suggest whether she wishese to accompany her to the address. She lits up and looks relief. While this is happening I'm paying attention to whats taking place in me. This young woman is about 20 years old. I'm 35. I cam see she is pretty. I can feel a pull of my body towards her. All the while I know no 20, 25 or 28 year old would truly fulfill me. There is a primordial pull but mind overrides this to such am extend that there are not fantasies of any kind. But I've observed this toward nearly all the women i see and meet. As long as they are feminine enough there is that pull. But when you love someone that primordial attraction is contained just for one. And if that is not the case then both are together because neither wants to be alone and uses the other as a distraction. And since we speak blunt - sugar babes and daddies are nothing but meesed up people. Afraid and insecure no matter the amount or the quantity accumulated.
Margaret
Maslow's hierarchy of needs isnt about what is necessary to LIVE. It's about motivation. Can one be happy and have a rewarding life without experiencing sex? Yes. But we can't escape the fact that reproductive drive is the underlying motivation for most personal, professional and financial improvement. Even with reliable birth control turning sex into an act of pleasure more than reproduction, it's a pleasure that (as you pointed out) eclipses all others. And the bodies we inhabit were designed that way for a reason. If you could get that same rush of chemicals through a syringe, taking away the courtship dance, the emotional bond, the social elements of mating... would you?
Hristo
As for Maslows hierarchy of needs... Sex isn't at the top of physiological needs. Food, shelter and water are far important. What we speaking about here. Let's say that one meets everything one of those needs but there is a lack of sex. Does thay mean one cannot love? One cannot be happy? Have those men who pay for bookers fulfill all those needs? If they had they would not be paying hookers would they. If they have met everyone of those needs of Maslow and still went for the hooker, then either Maslow has go it wrong... People just don't know. Sex is the best way of escape all pain in turmoil. Ooo boy! When I slide inside a woman all my problems disappear. I've met lots of those people.
Margaret
Individuals drawing the line between want and need is EXACTLY what has led to the growth of the sugar baby phenomenon. As the first poster wrote - her male clients need sex, but they want it to be with an attractive, enthusiastic, intelligent woman. She fulfills that need and the wants. She needs to make a living, but she wants the lifestyle and the feelings she associates with being on the fringe of the industry she has worked in for some time. She approaches it like a business. She sees herself as a professional who provides a unique product or service. I think she's right. And for each woman like her... I bet there are 1000 who don't have the same physical, mental or emotional skills/assets for which this lifestyle creates a very different outcome.
Hristo
Those are the facts. Like you said, it's the failure to distinguish "want" from "need". The desires from the essential to human existence. Then the question is what is essential.
Hristo
If you are to approach this on bases of whether this is wrong or not you'd never really get anywhere. That depends on fever changing values ans beliefs. What is actually important is to examine some simple facts. Firstly, we predominantly selfish. Everything we do we do it because it brings us something. If I help the poor or a friend I derive satisfaction from my efforts. We get something - always. There is nothing wrong with that. The evil of it is not to see what we are doing. This is the case here. What these girls are doing is hookering, they are high end prostitutes. Why is there that desire to call the three a flower and attempt to place it in a vase? How ridiculous. To sell your body you would have to come with some plausible bullshit to fool yourself in order to let some man penetrate you. Why call yourself sugar babe? EUPHEMISM. Do you know why? Because if you have to call things as they are you'd have to look at the truth not the made up story one has conjured. And each that does not want to look at one's own uglinest is coward. Man or woman. Why are those two girls rotten and ugly? I don't care if she sells her body if she is totally aware of this what it does to the body, mind and spirit. The message this sends to the world. But don't go along and say each party benefits. No one benefits here. Bodies wear off like anything else. Why is this a waste? What do we get out of this transaction? We get pleasure. Pleasure in its essence is the repetition of a past experience. Something that is known. Because the brain needs certainty to function. Pleasure leads all ways and always to pain. The very first time was not pleasure the act was new, like climbing your first mountain. That first time can never be comparable to the second climb. Your brain knows it, you body know it. But the unknown is scary. Love is always new, it's never a repetition. This takes daily care as new stimuli and experiences take place - things change. Please and love do not co-exist. One has to be absent for the other to exist. Its a paradox. All joy is new and the desire for repetition is called pleasure. Life without pleasure is dull and boring. However, we seldom see where that leads. So these men and women are constantly seeking this transaction where both parties derive pleasure out of it. Seeking the new in the past, wishing to extract something else out of the old and not even realising it. All this can lead to more and more insecurity and suffering. What strikes is that most people imagine suffering as something intense. That's not true, mostly suffering is rarely intense, it's running in the background. Your our responsibility to make it as intense as possible, and that will lead to chance. A radical evolution of the psych. But with desire for please we seek to dull our senses for a momentary satisfaction. An inquisitive mind, a sharp mind has a way to its heart.
Margaret
Romantic relationships, as with all things, seem to fall along a spectrum. On one extreme, we have the mystical, spiritual love connection where no physical contact even has to take place... the stuff of fairy tales. On the other extreme, a john pays a sex worker $50 to blow him in the back seat of his car in some dark alley... and 15 minutes later he's on his way. One extreme asks for nothing, the other is an impersonal transaction, where both participants get a little of what they need, just to get by for another day. Every other relationship falls somewhere along this continuum. But, no matter where it falls, as long as both are willing participants, it doesn't matter how 'transactional' or how temporary the relationship is, does it? The real problem seems to be when people are not truthful with themselves or one another about what they want and need. So one party might be viewing the relationship as if it's closer to the personal/romantic end, while the other is focused on getting certain needs met, and the conflicting values and objectives create strife.
Margaret
First of all, thanks to the ladies who shared their perspective, and thanks to Alexander for posting it. As I said yesterday... I'm fascinated by the insight, but also by some of the responses here. I'm wondering, from the male readers and commenters, do you think sex workers are wrong and immoral? I'm not talking about whether or not you would personally want to date a current or former sex worker... I'm talking about the transaction and the participants themselves. The first entry above spells out a mutually beneficial business transaction, where communication is a priority and both parties, in most cases, view the exchange as worthwhile. So tell me... how is this wrong?
Margaret
Calling me out, huh? Hahahaha Lemme think on it... still processing the letters above. But right off the top I am absolutely FASCINATED that this 'lifestyle' has grown to fill a natural demand in the mating space that has honestly strayed quite a long way off the path of evolutionary biology. Really fascinating...
My comment is about age gap relationships. They are frowned upon in Western Society (UK, Australia, USA Canada etc) because many older people are sick or infertile or may already be married. However, in Asia and other countries where diet may be better, age gap relationships are acceptable and normal. This was OK in the past too, for example in Hawaii, where Filipino immigrants worked: "One astonishing example of their vitality was demonstrated by elderly Filipino men who would work hard on the plantation, saving their money for retirement. At that time they would visit the Philippines to find a young bride to bring back to Hawaii. Everyday a family consisting of a seventy-year-old (plus) gentleman, his twenty-year-old bride and their children would come to my medical office. This man was demonstrating a level of function that men in their fifties only dreamed about. He was sexually active, bearing children, and expecting to watch them grow into adulthood." (source https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/aug/fav5.htm). What seems to be going on here is that young attractive women desire men with power influence and wealth, and this so-called "sugar baby and daddy" arrangement is just an excuse to legitimize our normal healthy instincts in this very distorted, judgemental feminist world that we live in.
I think of those tapeworms people used to buy and willingly ingest, allowing them refuge in their guts just to lose weight and "look good".
For the 1 out of 3 women that express interest in this lifestyle, it is self selected with comfort, so not necessarily 1/3 of all women. It would be interesting to know what the upbringing was like for these women interested in sugar babying.
Hristo
I have no problem with someone like that At all. People can change. Why judge on past behaviours? I remember a girlfriend I had many years ago. She was 18. The silly me of that time asked her how many people she had slept with. She didn't say that day. Sometime later she said 15. Not easy to hear. I should have asked. She now has a kid and a man. Also tells me every. For the last 12 he has been with 3 guys. All three were long distances relationship.
A lot of sugar babies have their “best” photo that they use. Sometimes even using the same image on linked in or as the thumbnail for Facebook, etc. a reverse image search may tell you a lot... I would say that not every girl has the genetics to be a SB. Who wants a dumpy fat girlfriend? So it’s the top 20-30% in the looks category to begin with. If the hot women have a notch count 100+, that probably has more to do with their pair bonding ability rather than being in a sugar relationship.
I hope at some point in the future, that technology will make possible a search of females like these in some database. It's horrifying to think you could inadvertently fall for someone with a past like this, carefully hidden away
This is just prostitution with mores steps... She will find it impossible to love a man, having twisted her view of what the relationship between a couple should be.
Hristo
Margaret, what are your thoughts about it? And, for woman to aceept this "lifestyle", what she must be like?
