Antikythera Fragment #7 - Precision Soft Soldering

Clickspring

Thank you Jonathan, and will do on the frame rate! Re working the blocks, it was to validate what I think is the most likely, worst case surface finish on the blocks. I figured the Maker probably received the copper in some sort of crude form, and so would have had to do something to turn it into a shape that would be suitable for the job. Its possible that the metal was cast for the purpose (and so would have a provided a smooth interface) but it would have been so much easier to simply forge them into shape and just accept whatever small penalty a rougher surface might impose on the heat transfer rate, for the sake of getting on with the job - Cheers mate :)

Jonathan Crider

Hey Chris! Another masterpiece, as always. Just had one question and one comment/request: first, what was your reasoning for working the copper blocks (not the pointed, "soldering iron tips" - that reason is self-evident) with a hammer? It does appear that you've consolidated them a bit, which would aid in heat retention, but you don't mention it at all in the video. As for the comment/request, I don't care what kind of video equipment you end up buying in the future - whether it be 4k- or even 8k-capable (yes, Youtube DOES support 8k now) PLEASE continue to upload at a higher-than-normal framerate! Especially when watching lathe work, the difference between a 50 FPS video and a standard 25 FPS video is night-and-day. Regardless of how you intend to extend your video capturing capabilities, PLEASE keep uploading at the highest framerate that you can! Much <3, -Jonathan

Jeff Armstrong

I've been thinking on this thread ever since the video came out and a couple of observations to make: * would the Maker have used a lead/tin alloy in preference to pure tin? * How likely is it that they simply used pure rosin as a flux?

Hi. I just became a patreon to support your amazing work! This is like a window into our past! And your skill is amazing! Can i please know what is the name of the last song in ep. 7 it is beutifull :-)

Clickspring

Hello mate - I've not seen anything in my reading so far to suggest such a cutting tool existed, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it didn't. The main argument against such a tool being used in this case, is that the squares throughout the mechanism show no standardization in size. They are all slightly different sizes, with slightly different errors in each instance. If a punch or broach was used, I would expect to see at least some common sizing, as well as repeated evidence around the hole perimeters of dimension errors in the cutting tool itself imprinting on the holes (a bit like what has been reported in the research regarding the file profile errors repeatedly imprinted the same small defect across multiple teeth) - not seeing either suggests to me that the squares were probably all hand filed - Cheers :)

Clickspring

Ha ha! Cheers mate :)

Karolus

Hi Chris, I was wondering if there was a tool similar to the square broach you fabricated in antiquity, given the precision of the square holes in the Antikythera Mechanism

Chris Talbot

Just got back from 2 weeks overseas, great to have 2 clickspring vids to catch up on! This soft soldering is really cool... hot. Whatever. I doubt that I could get such neat results with a brazing torch, let alone a few hot lumps of copper!

Clickspring

To get a hole of specific size and tolerance, as opposed to say simply drilling a hole which is highly variable in both size and roundness - Cheers :)

Alex Holierhoek

So Chris, what is the point of a reamer, I never understood the use of one

Clickspring

In this case the problem would be distortion - The plate is essentially a precision part, and brazing temperatures take brass and bronze well into the zone of being quite soft. The most recent metallurgy papers have roughly confirmed the low tin nature of the bronze, as well as the likely use of pewter as an adornment metal - I'm very much looking forward to putting that little detail to good use later in the build :)

Clickspring

Hello mate - Its possible, but it would raise some complications. The main one is that there are multiple unrestrained parts on each side of the plate. It would be much more challenging (and require more than the minimum rational approach) to maintain alignment of all parts on both sides - Cheers :)

Steven Naslund

Also was thinking that putting the whole assembly on the heat would allow a brazing method to be used. That might be easier than achieving the balanced tin/lead purity that soft soldering requires. Have there been any metalurical studies of the original artifact? That sure would be interesting.

Steven Naslund

I am wondering if they might have used a reflow method where the parts may have been adhered with rosin, bits of solder placed and the entire assembly then put on the coals. The solder could then melt and be drawn in by capillary forces. You could leave the whole thing to cool and all would be soldered in one go. Might be a more efficient method than transferring the heat via blocks and irons.

Clickspring

Terrific to have your support mate :)

Clickspring

Thank you mate!

Frank Kreidemaker

I think you deserve a honorary PHD in ancient tool craft. Incredible work Chris!

I can say, with no arrogance, that this is my favorite channel on youtube. I am proud to support on Patreon. Every video has a refreshing video and production quality, and I honestly enjoy watching the work. Thank you Chris for what you do!

Clickspring

Thank you Paul :)

Clickspring

Thank you mate :)

Clickspring

That could be fun Steve, thanks for suggesting :)

Amazing video as always Chris. I don't know if you have thought of something to build after the mechanism is complete, but it occured to me the other day that you could make a beautiful telescope. I would love to see your take on the process of making one. I look forward to seeing the rest of the mechanism, thank you for your videos!

Shao Zhang

Amazing to think how much knowledge can be given with today’s technology compared to antiquity. Just this video alone and it’s viewers would have been a staggering amount of effort. Really proud to support this channel.

Clickspring

Thank you mate, more on the way soon :)

Clickspring

Wouldn't that be wonderful :) I do wish I had the time to write this all up properly as well as do the videos, but i just can't squeeze it all in - having said that I still have the paper idea cooking in the background, and now have the help of a couple of colleagues to help get it done - We're still at the early stages, but I will keep you posted as it develops :)

Kevin Reardon

Dear lord, how many PhD's are you getting out of this?

Clickspring

Hey Luther, I'm mostly working with the research papers of Michael Wright, the AMRP and other academics which loosely reference the technology arc, but the evidence is all very fragmentary and generally not the main focus of the papers. So its spread across a multitude of papers, with little nuggets of detail in each one, but the nature of academic research is that no single publication really ties it all together as a narrative. Viewed together, the story is absolutely awesome. If it were cohesively pulled into a well written and edited book, it would be a best seller I think. By far the best book on the technical aspects of the AM is Alexander Jones' recent book: <a href="https://amzn.to/2M7nAXy" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://amzn.to/2M7nAXy</a> - Cheers :)

Bronze and brass became easily available to watch and clock makers by the 17th or 18th century. Before then, you had to make your own, or rely on others to provide what you needed. Steel was another matter - it was not until well into the 20th century that steel became a dependable commodity for watch and clock makers. Which is to say your point is well-taken, in that ancient tools and materials were more available in ancient times. As against that, you can get just about anything you want on your doorstep, including all the metal and tools you need to build just about anything. We truly live in an embarrassment of riches in this regard, and it is only one in 1000, or 100,000 that actually builds something interesting like the Antikythera mechanism. I love this channel.

Paul Busby

Another great video. It is truly amazing to me how people that long ago not only worked this stuff out but had access to all the different materials. I sometimes wonder if it is harder now to easily source metal and chemicals for home projects. Truly inspiring work.

Is there anything you can’t do AND make it look amazing!?!? Who knew you could be a blacksmith too? Very cool Chris! Only one complaint, you make me wait too long for the next one!

Alex

Looks like it would have taken a whole crew do really work effectively.

Luther

Chris, this is a mechanism that many people claim was beyond humans understanding to create. These videos do a great job of showing that humans had the skill and knowledge, but more than likely needed the time, money, and resources. Do you have any book recommendations on the history of technology?

SkaveRat

Now I want to see this method getting used for PCB soldering :D

Clickspring

Very much appreciate your support mate, thank you :)

Clickspring

That's a terrific question Gregor - I will be covering this in more detail later in the build, but think its fair to say that (at the very least) the designer had a very "hands-on" practical understanding of what was achievable with the materials and tools of the day. Cheers :)

It's clear that a staggering amount of effort, consideration, and skill goes into every aspect of your projects. Thank you not only for doing such fascinating and insightful work, but for sharing it so freely.

Clickspring

I think it would Rex - the billow might be a bit awkward to handle, but the general concept of a blown coal heating element wasn't that much further down the technological road - Cheers :)

Clickspring

Cheers Braden :)

Clickspring

So pleased you enjoyed it mate :)

Clickspring

Ha ha! me too mate :)

Clickspring

Thank you Mat :)

Clickspring

Terrific to hear that Phil :)

Clickspring

Cheers David :)

Clickspring

Thank you Nils :)

Gregor Shapiro

Do you suppose the maker(s) of the mechanism (the guy(s) in the shop getting their hands dirty) was/were the same "universal genius(es)" that designed the working parts and calculated the elements?

Really enjoyed this video, and it’s impressive considering how fast you have to work as the materials cool down. Would it be possible to to extend the shaft of the soldering tip quite a bit and make a basket like on a sword that you could keep one or two charcoals in to extend the working time with good heat? You could even have a small billow attached to keep the heat going.

Wow, very cool! Certainly more cumbersome than the modern electric soldering iron or blow torch, but amazingly effective. Well done sir.

Bernie Stefan-Rasmus

Fascinating as always I really like your deductive reasoning as you solve the problems of going back in time

Gary Knight

Thanks Chris. Another fascinating video. Your skill and knowledge levels are off the chart. I've had a go at soft soldering, and let's just say I need some practice :-) Cheers, Gary

Mat Gardner

Awesome as always Chris.

Phil Sydor

Fantastic! I always learn a lot of new (or old in this case) techniques. I'll be watching this video many times. Thanks for all your hard work and significant amount of research on the making of the Antikythera device.

David Sinclair

This video is so good

Nils Rohwer

What an incredible amount of work you put into the videos and of course the content itself. It is very much appreciated. Thank you!

Clickspring

Thank you Tony, I'm so pleased :)

Tony M

Every time I see a post from you, I always feel like my patience is being rewarded. Your videos are intriguing and entertaining, and I get excited to watch them just from seeing the subject line in my inbox :D

Clickspring

Cheers Derek :)

Clickspring

Thank you mate :)

Clickspring

Beautiful detail Gottfried, thank you :)

Peter Larsen

It's been too long since your last video. I'd forgotten how exceptional they are. What a great demonstration, and an ohmage to the Greeks and humanity of long times past.

Gottfried Schuss

Hi Chris, I worked with my father, a plumbing and heating contractor from about age five through graduate school. In addition to plumbing and HVAC, we also did rain gutter installations. One of my jobs was to monitor the soldering irons (better referred to as soldering coppers) to keep them tinned and at the correct temperature. Also, I had to see that there was muriatic (hydrochloric) acid ready to clean and flux joints and sal ammoniac (ammonium chloride) mixed with bits of solder to tin the soldering coppers. Much of the soldering of the copper and galvanized steel gutters could be done on the ground. Occasionally, some joints had to be made on the roof. Dad would take a heavy glove with him on the ladder. My job was to toss a hot soldering copper under-handed so that it wouldn't spin. I had to also wear a heavy glove, because to keep the soldering copper from spinning, one had to toss from the center of rotation, close to the hot copper. We also made up custom "roof jacks" out of sheet lead. That's when you got to show off your soldering ability. Lead is dead easy to solder. Making it pretty was where the skill showed. You have brought back a lot of great memories. As usual, great workmanship, together with a very compelling story of the history of these skills. Thanks and best regards, Gottfried

Derek Meisenhelder

Wonderful!

Clickspring

Thank you mate :) Yes its very interesting that some were pinned yet the others directly adjacent were soldered - Its also noteworthy that strictly speaking the thin soldered ones under the B assembly do not immediately seem necessary - The job of stabilising the B assembly (at least at this early stage of the build) is being done quite well by just the pinned kerbs - I'll cover this in a bit more detail in the main video.

Clickspring

Wow that was so cool - thank you!

Brian Ullmark

Very impressive and delightful to see you stay true to what 'might have been used'. With that said - it appears those parts could have been installed mechanically with a few rivets (filed/sanded smooth)?

Matthieu Germain

Fascinating to watch! In the organ building trade, your mixture of lead and tin is used quite a lot, and called "spotted metal" because the mixture (not an alloy) becomes mottled due to the two components solidifying at different temperatures--if you ever get a chance, try pouring it on a less conductive surface, and enjoy watching the "blistering". Here's a fun video of casting a sheet <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlTWTjHKcI0" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlTWTjHKcI0</a>

Clickspring

Ha ha! Yes not exactly precision flat surfaces, a bit wonky in parts! - I figured the Maker probably received the copper in some sort of crude form, and so would have had to do something to turn it into a shape that would be suitable for the job. Its possible that it was re-melted and cast into a suitable shape, but I decided it was probably more logical to just belt them into shape with the hammer!

Clickspring

Thank you mate!

Jeff Swayze

Absolutely fascinating Chris. Your patience and attention to detail continue to impress! Out of curiosity, why did you hammer the large blocks of copper? Obviously the heat transfer was significantly diminished since the blocks were only contacting the workpiece at a few (dare I say 3?) points. FWIW, my theory is that you wanted to make the process more accurate to the likely scenario that the maker encountered.. but if I'm wrong then please do tell! ;-)

Clifton Ballad

Wow, never thought of solder as a precision process, even less so with hot copper blocks as the heat source... Well played!

Clickspring

Hello mate :)

Clickspring

So pleased to read that Peter, thank you :)

Clickspring

Yes I definitely think this process is a strong argument for there being several workers in the shop - I was so busy stoking the fire, preparing the tools, touching up the rosin etc it was crazy busy. I definitely needed help :)

Clickspring

Ha ha! Thank you so much for your patience mate, I do appreciate it :)

Clickspring

Yes certainly possible on the casting molds Ralph, I considered the idea at one point too, but decided to tough it out with the hammer! Re the heating from beneath, its certainly possible, but one thing I quickly learned is that the heat really needs to be tightly controlled - the metal is very susceptible to distortion at even quite a modest heat, and I think the Maker would have been wary of the same threat to the plate. The job really needs to be quick and local - Cheers mate :)

Clickspring

My understanding is that the so called "Active" fluxes are so named because they actively chemically reduce the oxides back to metal (much like an acid), and that the passives are generally a barrier - however I suspect that there is also a chemically active component to the reaction with respect to Rosin - I would be interested to hear more detail from anyone who knows the chemistry better - Cheers :)

When I was studying jewelry there was nothing more satisfying than that little silver line. The capillary action, the heat, the quick precise movements all in service of a vision brought me into profound contact with our ancestors. This work you have done of figuring out such ancient techniques clarifies and brings such radiance to our history as humanity. Thank you truly! I feel more human from your work. What you are doing is very meaningful to me.

Ralph McCoy

'Also the heat blocks could be on a see saw type so the heat source could be changed out rapidly, and some sort of holding down on the work piece. 2 person job. Great video Chris

John P

I'VE BEEN WAITING WEEKS FOR NEW CONTENT! ALL HAIL CLICKSPRING!

Ralph McCoy

Chris, could the heat be applied from underneath ? Also maybe they made a mold, such as a groove in wood then they could make different thickness ' rods

Clickspring

It sure was - very hot work! Managed to collect a few little burns too...

Tom Colson

Fascinating take on how the ancient process might have worked. Would you clarify the differences between active and passive fluxes? Does this mean chemically active vs a simple physical oxygen barrier?

Very Good question. I'd like to see this answered

Tyler Davis

During the few minutes that the rosin is tacky after general positioning, how are you getting the part into it's final, precise position?

Alex Rains

Hi Chris.

James Cuddihy

Huzzah!! I bet that was fun up there in the tropics! We have had quite a mild winter down here on the Tropic of Capricorn so I imagine it was a pretty steamy job.