Top 40 extra: Charles Barkley

Food for thought: Luka and Jokic offensive performance against similar opponents in the PS. Luka's averages vs Clippers in 2020 PS (Clippers had a rDRTG of -3.1) 31 points, 9.8 rebs, 8.7 assists, 5.2 turnovers (rTS% of 5.6%) in 35.8 MPG. Luka is estimated to have created about 16.2 shots per 100 possessions. Backpicks BPM-6.2 GameScore-23.4 Net On/Off-3.1 Dallas had a 111.1 ORTG, and 120.9 DRTG with Luka on. Jokic's averages vs Clippers in 2020 PS (Clippers had a rDRTG of -3.1) 24.4 points, 13.4 rebounds, 6.6 assists, 4.7 turnovers (rTS% of 5.4%) in 37.7 MPG. Jokic is estimated to have created about 10.4 shots per 100 possessions. Backpicks BPM-6.1 GameScore-19.9 Net On/Off-18.1 Denver had a 113.1 ORTG, and 110.6 defensive rating with Jokic on. Luka's averages vs Clippers in 2021 PS (Clippers had a rDRTG of -1.3) 35.7 pts, 7.9 rebounds, 10.3 assists, 4.6 turnovers (rTS% of 0.90%) in 40.2 MPG. Luka is estimated to have created about 19.5 shots per 100 possessions. Backpicks BPM-6.8 GameScore-26.1 Net On/Off-43.2 Dallas had a 119.8 ORTG and 120.9 DRTG with Luka on. Jokic's averages vs Suns in 2021 PS (Suns had a rDRTG of -1.1) 25 points, 13.3 rebounds, 5.8 assists, 2 turnovers (rTS% of -3.5%) in 33.5 MPG. Jokic is estimated to have created about 7.7 shots per 100 possessions. Backpicks BPM-5 GameScore-22.2 Net On/Off: (-3.8) Denver had a 111.6 ORTG, and 125.7 DRTG with Jokic on. Luka's averages vs Suns in 2022 PS (Suns had a rDRTG of -4.6) 32.6 points, 9.9 rebounds, and 7 assists, 4 turnovers (rTS% of 3.9%) in 36.1 MPG. Luka is estimated to have created about 17.6 shots per 100 possessions. Backpicks BPM-9.7 GameScore-24.8 Net On/Off-16.6 Dallas had a 120.7 ORTG and a 113.6 DRTG with Luka on. Jokic's averages vs Warriors in 2022 PS (Warriors have a rDRTG of -4.9) 31 pts, 13.2 rebs, and 5.8 assists, 4.8 turnovers (rTS% of 8.9%) in 34.2 MPG. Jokic is estimated to have created about 12.5 shots per 100 possessions. Backpicks BPM-8.6 GameScore-25.9 Net On/Off: (-15.8) Denver had a 111.6 ORTG and a 125.7 DRTG with Jokic on. Luka's averages vs Warriors in 2022 PS (Warriors have a rDRTG of -4.9) 32 pts, 9.2 rebs, and 6 assists, 3.8 turnovers (rTS% of 0.60%) in 38.2 MPG. Luka is estimated to have created about 12.5 shots per 100 possessions. Backpicks BPM-5 GameScore-22.9 Net On/Off: (-33.3) Mavs had a 110.5 ORTG and a 126.3 DRTG with Luka on. All in all Luka's PS runs measured Bball Ref BPM 20-7.9 21-11.8 22-9.3 AuPM/g 20-2.5 21-3.9 22-3.2 RAPTOR 20-9.2 21-11.3 22-3.5 2020-2022 LEBRON-4.32 Jokic's measurements in recent PS runs Bball Ref BPM 20-7.4 21-9 22-10.7 AuPM/g 20-3.4 21-2.7 22-4.4 RAPTOR 20-4.8 21-7 22-10.3 2020-2022 LEBRON-1.96

I've discussed this with Dirk before, so it's been on my mind for a while. For what you're describing, I'd say it makes it easier for Doncic to have a higher *peak.*

Does your realization that Barkley has never played on a great team/defense and the understanding of how bigs can be exposed more in today's game in the PS, carry over to your evaluation of Jokic? I'm thinking Luka>Jokic is the way to go, just like you had it back in the 2020 season. While Jokic is indeed a top 5-10 offensive player ever (something Barkley wasn't), his offensive production in the PS from 20-22, hasn't actually outpaced Doncic. And if Doncic is less of a liability in the PS...

I remember Charles was great at posting up traditional power forwards and under-sized tweeners. He was kinda like bully-ball LeBron. The tall/super long (PF/C) hybrids (McHale/Duncan/Sheed) gave him trouble.

Sorry. The “no post moves” description was also used in the Dirk / Karl / Chuck comp pod and has been itching at the back of my brain since then. A second utterance was apparently beyond the pale for me.

I have Barkley at clear All-NBA level from 1986-96 ('97 is fringe), 7 of those seasons are either low MVP or flirt with low MVP, and his peak gets close to what I'd call strong MVP. I do view those 3 similarly, although I think Charles's peak is maybe a tad behind the other I could see him as high as 16th on the list (16-18 or so -- there are a group of players very close there that we'll get to)

I wasn't literally saying he had no move to score in the post. I was saying that everything you just described wasn't a traditional post bag that pops. (eg there's no hook and or twisting fades over both shoulders)

Idk why you insist Charles had no post moves. He had a good drop step, a great swing move to the middle, a terrific turn and seal spin to the baseline and a standard right shoulder turnaround. It wasn’t pretty, but he had moves.

I don't think it was mentioned but similarly to what you did with Durant and Erving, how many MVP or All-NBA level seasons would you give Barkley? How does he stack up against Nash(23rd) and Durant(21st) and what would the range you give him be? - also how would you and Cody rank the peaks between Erving, Barkley, and Nash seeing as you view them all in the MVP range? Loving the content so far