Bacon Macleod
patreon
B2 Chapter 217: Cold Bodies, finale
🕑 Added 2025-03-02 10:25:20 +0000 UTCEdit: Patreon went straight to posting instead of queueing because of a faulty double click, so this one in 9 hours early (sigh.). I'd ninja delete and requeue, but as I learnt the last time this happened, people get the full email either way.
Sitting on the warchief’s throne, Ro gave them a look as she sprawled out lazily—one leg crossed.
It was calculative—stern and judging.
Kaius struggled to respond, his mind still rooted in the spot by the simple sight of seeing her in the boggling cave.
Ro? Of all people—the strange force that had torn their way through the bogglings that had given them so much trouble was Ro?
They hadn’t even sensed her—and the obvious ease with which she had cut through the horde revealed she held far more personal power than he expected.
So it was a test, he realised. Rieker had said he would put them on missions that were at the very edge of their ability, but Kaius had thought that the man had meant their ability to handle in direct battle.
This…seemed different. They’d missed something crucial, and no doubt were going to suffer for it.
Ro watched them standing in silence, her fingers drumming impatiently on the bone of the warchief’s throne.
“Come on, folks, I don’t have all day. I asked you a question.” her tone brooked no argument.
Kaius flinched—realising he’d just spent the last few minutes staring at the guild manager. In his defence, seeing her here—comfortable in the midst of a charnel house—was not what he had expected. Hells, a dragon would have surprised him less.
“Like ash.” he replied honestly. After so many hours to think about it, he’d continuously arrived at the same point again and again.
They’d failed due to hubris and lack of preparation—not inability. Sure, they were poorly suited to such a fight. At least they were until Ianmus showed his capabilities with his new spell that had annihilated what must have been over fifty bogglings—a spell the man hadn’t even named yet.
Ro smiled at his response—it wasn’t a wide one. More a bare acknowledgement that they at least had the sense to know that they’d messed up.
“Good—you’re not entirely hopeless, even if today was a fucking travesty. I’ve seen Coppers who work better than this, you utter fools.” Ro tore into them, her withering gaze letting them know just how disappointed she truly was.
“I mean, seriously, we tell you you’re up against an entire warren and you just…waltz in? Credit where credit is due, at least you didn’t go for a frontal assault, but there’s so much more you should have done. I hope that’s evident.”
“It is,” Kaius replied, stepping forward to take the brunt of her disappointment. As party leader, it was ultimately his failure—he was the one with the final say on their tactics. “We should have watched the horde for longer—tried to get an accurate reading on their numbers.”
“And your assault? What would you have done differently then?” Ro uncrossed her legs, leaning over in the chair to rest her elbow on the arm of the throne.
Kaius winced, thinking of all the things he should have done.
“There’s a lot. Sneaking in was probably the best ploy—as was leaving the raiders alone. If they’d known we’d been approaching we would have had to deal with ambushes and traps galore—probably magical ones too, with the bugbear shamans.”
Ro nodded—though Kaius could tell by the way she rolled her wrist at him to continue that she thought it was a bare minimum of tactical acumen.
“Other than that, I’ve had the time to think. I can see two main things we could have done to improve our odds. Three, technically—but I don’t think the last is as applicable in this specific situation.”
Ro cocked her head, looking at him with a touch of genuine surprise. Kaius was almost offended by her lack of faith in his ability to recognise his faults, but he was sure she was more used to pampered nobles—and in her defence, they had been more than a little reckless right off the back of her warnings about the assassin spider.
“Oh? You’ve reflected—what a surprise. Shock me with your wisdom, greenhorn.” she replied, her voice sardonic.
Taking the jab with the grace Ro had earned—she had just saved their asses, after all—Kaius nodded.
“First, we were woefully uninformed of the difficulties of a large scale cull of bogglings—”
“Bogglings?” Ro cut in—unable to stop herself from chuckling at the unexpected word.
The mirthful smile she let slip cut the tension.
They weren’t in trouble, Kaius realised. Her stern disappointment was smoke and mirrors, his Glass Mind was sure of it—cataloguing her every reaction against his memories. This had been planned.
Thank the gods he’d managed to crack her with a slip of the tongue, though he stood by the fact that bogglings was the best term for the monsters.
“Ah, the boggarts and bugbears…and whatever that is I suppose.” Kaius replied, nodding his head towards the stiffened corpse of the warchief. “Sort of like goblinoids.”
Ro tried to keep a stern face, but his eyes were sharp enough to catch the twitch at the corner of her mouth. “Right, yes—bogglings. It’ll do—the system calls the big one’s Bugganes, by the way.” The guild manager replied, nearly choking on the name for the largest boggling. “Continue.”
Kaius nodded, doing his best to ignore the humour that Ro had found in the names. He did admit it was a strange name, but regardless if it was expected for them to fail or not—they were being judged.
Trying to find the humour in it all—to joke with Ro as if she was a friend—would undoubtedly backfire.
He might have, back in the guild hall—if they were sharing a pint and swapping stories—but right now they were delvers who had failed, and she was their superior.
“We were uninformed. While bugbears and other developed forms of boggarts are new, cullings of a scale like this are almost certainly not. We should have asked for advice—found accounts in the guild, approaches that had worked in the past, and tactics that would maximise our success. We probably should have looked into goblins too, since they’re a similar plague to the dwarves, and they deal with them in far greater numbers than boggarts have ever been seen in.” Kaius said, laying out the first of their mistakes.
He’d thought about it a lot. Honestly, the fact that it had taken this for him to realise he should be leveraging the experience of the guild was an embarrassment. They were an institution, with all the knowledge and experience that came with it. Not just a mission board and a wallet.
“Yes!” Ro said, throwing up her hands like she wanted to throw herself to her knees and praise the gods. “I wanted to wring your fucking neck when you morons left Deadacre without asking to be shown to the Archives—we have more than maps, you know!”
“I won’t fault you for not looking into goblins—though I will be mandating that for anyone who takes on a boggling contract from now on—because this development of the ‘bogglings’ came as much of a shock to me as anyone else. I only knew as much as you did before we arrived.” Ro continued, before she leaned in and fixed them with a stare. “However, if you’d looked into boggarts you’d know that bugbears aren’t new.”
Kaius looked at her in shock—they weren’t? What in the gods’ names was she talking about?
It seemed he wasn’t the only one surprised by her response. Ianmus’s eyes were practically falling out of his skull.
“They aren’t?” Ianmus replied. “But I thought they were thought of as unique amongst the lower races?”
“Wrong, though a common belief. Boggart dens rarely grow above level twenty, or forty members, before they are discovered and stamped out. However, there have been a few accounts of them growing large enough to have chiefs and shamans…who are invariably bugbears. We just thought they were closer to ogres and trolls, where a single leader and a single mage can develop into a more potent form.” Ro replied, shaking her head.
Kaius sighed—so they’d been even more uninformed than he thought.
“That just reinforces my point—we should have researched. No doubt there would have been long held approaches to culling effectively.”
The guild manager gave him a slow nod, like he’d just said that cows could be milked.
“There are. I’m glad you’ve realised this on your own—a delver needs to be prepared. The threats of this world are myriad and vast, but history is long. If you have any inkling of what you’re going to face, you’re doing yourself a disservice by ignoring the wisdom of your predecessors. Now, you said you had other failings—tell me.”
“Preparation.” Kaius replied. “We came in half-cocked. You’d outright told us an estimate of numbers—but we still stocked as if we would have the down time to recover.”
Ro clapped, each crack of her hands echoing through the cavern.
“Correct. A common enough issue amongst fresh meat that has only delved—which was everyone in the central lands, before this phase change flooded us with monsters. The shallow layers of the Depths are forgiving—almost kind. In the deep wilds—everywhere now, with the rising mana—and the deeper layers, you do not get those pretty little encounters wrapped in a bow. It's a constant grind—rest only comes when you’ve killed everything nearby, hidden yourselves, or managed to run fast enough to escape.”
So the Depths did change as you got deeper. Kaius filed that knowledge away—it was another thing to research. He’d known the biomes got more expansive, and even more densely populated, but he’d hoped that being able to rest between battles would remain.
Ro caught his eye. “I see that look—yes, deeper layers of the depths are far more difficult than can be explained by levels alone. The monsters are smarter, tougher, and more coordinated. There's more of them, they roam larger areas, and rest spaces grow fewer and fewer. Regardless, the common wisdom is to approach every estimate as if the true numbers were twice what you had been told—and you didn’t even prepare for that much.”
“We didn’t.” Kaius agreed. “We should have had as many restoratives as we could purchase—potion toxicity matters far less when you’re fighting for so long, we could have fielded far more skills far more frequently if we weren’t worried about burning out. Even if I'd still had to save my spells, I would have been able to use my Bladerite far more than I did.”
Nodding along to his words, Kaius was surprised to see the guild manager looked almost pleased. Clearly, by offering up his own explanations for their failure, he’d taken a bit of the wind out of the sails of the lecture she’d no doubt been expecting to give.
She paused for a bit, tapping the armrest while she looked off into space—clearly thinking.
Suddenly, Ro rose to her feet, jumping down from the grisly throne to walk towards them.
“I’ll be honest—those are the main issues I'd noted. I’m curious though—you said you made three mistakes, what was the third?”
Kaius cocked his head. He was sure that the last one had been something that she and Rieker would have wanted to drive home.
“That we should have recognised we were not well suited to this mission, and asked for assistance?”
Ro paused midstep, looking at him like he’d grown three heads.
“Oh, that’s just precious—no.”
“What? I—”
“No.” Ro cut him off. “Learn to deal with your weaknesses and deficiencies, or you’ll die. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow—but someday you will. If you’re not confident in your chances of success on a contract you don’t take it.”
“More than that, the rise in mana has…changed things. In all likelihood—whether on the surface, or a deep delve—you will run into a situation you are unequipped to handle. When that happens, you run. You run fast, far, and only return when you are equipped to seize victory.” she continued.
Ro slapped her knee, clearly thinking through her words—focusing on how best to impress her teachings upon them.
“Being a delver is dangerous. We told you we had resources in place to handle this—if you felt unsuited, or found yourself out of your depths, you should have stood your ground and declined the job—or retreated. Regardless of temporary consequences. Yes, this was vitally important—but if you had died nothing would have been gained, and the bogglings would have been just as much of a threat. A living delver—especially of you and your team's calibre—and an incomplete mission is far more valuable than a dead one and a half-finished job.”
“That is what I want you to take away from this. Yes, we expected you to make this mistake. That is why I came, to ensure that you learned, while still extracting as much hands-on experience and levels as possible. Yes, there were developments neither of us expected—but if you had read the histories, you could have either handled it, or retreated to inform us of such an event. Remember, this is no true loss—take it for what it is, a teaching. You will have only failed us if this happens again.” Ro finished
Then she kept walking. Kaius expected her to slow—to join them where they stood. She didn’t. He spun, tracking her as she walked past.
“I’ve got shit to do—paperwork.” Ro spat the word like it was poison. “Don’t make these mistakes again, and come see me when you return to the city.”
Then she blurred, vanishing in a gust of wind.
Kaius stood there, rooted to the spot as he stared after the guild manager in disbelief. He struggled to wrap his head around the woman. She traveled all the way here to simply judge their performance, tear them a new one, and then just leaves?
When he’d seen Ro sitting there, he’d expected a remedial beatdown at the very least—something like Rieker had done. If not a week or so of training as they travelled back to Deadacre.
Apparently he’d been mistaken.
“Well, that was weird. Shall we look for loot?” Porkchop said, breaking the stunned silence.
Kaius sighed.
A/N: I struggled a little with this chapter, but I hope this shows that Ro followed them not because they were trying to pull a fast one - Ro knew no more than Kaius did about the job- but because they were there to ensure the safety of the team, the completion of the job, and that they took away the right lessons.
A lot of how Rieker and Ro have been acting is based on my understanding of the Zone of Proximal Development that I learnt about in my developmental psych papers at uni during one of my undergrads. Filtered, of course, through a world that is machismo AF (in a non-gendered sense), a lot more brutal and bloody, and knows a lot less about trauma and teaching theory.
It's the gap/zone between what can be completed alone/unassisted, and what needs assistance from teachers--the place where the most effective learning happens. This was a gamble on them being capable enough to succeed, but incapable enough to struggle. Ro joined to ensure that they worked through it themselves (incredibly beneficial to learning), while being able to effectively remove challenges (mostly unnoticed) that would have shunted it into the zone of needing assistance--which in this instance, would have meant at least one death.
Yes, they're gruff--but IRL i've seen tradies be far harsher to newbies, and most trades are a little less intense than professional monster hunting. A vital part of learning is the ability to make mistakes in a controlled and (sometimes unnoticed) supervised environment.
It's a different lesson than the one I tried to show last mission (which was 'just because you're strong for your level, doesn't mean that you're safe if you're blase about your potential')
I would love to know in the comments if--now that all the cards are on the table--that came across effectively! If you think it didn't, let me know if you have any ideas on bits that could be added to this sequence/mission arc to clarify this vibe (up to and including pov's being more explicit about this, though i'd love to hear what you think should be in them)
Comments
Noah
I think that’s kind of the point. Ro and Guildmaster have been basically holding their hands in training up to this point. They designed their training regime and plans for them. Kaius and the gang need to learn to seek out answers on their own, in situations where they aren’t blatantly provided. Kaius should have realized that archives are a thing or at least asked a few other guild members about the resources available.
Rosewell8
I think the worst part about this arc is that they weren't fully told the resources they were allowed to make use of. Had they said something about the archives before the team left, and they just didn't use them, then the arc wouldn't have rubbed so many people the wrong way. I didn't even know the archives were a thing until Ro said it in this chapter.
Justin Slone
They have honours that point them to the guardians. They could just use the 3rd layer portal they found and be in the 10th layer fairly quickly.
yohan gu
Here I was, thinking the Guild was excessively kind to them, giving out all manner of freebies, personal tutoring from the most important person in a hundred kilometers radius, a supervisor during a real life situation simulation and in general giving them extremely favorable terms, on the spread of their secrets, for example, while they have them completely in their power. For now, the Guild his up there in terms of angelic orgs. The “maybe the hand chopping would have removed his magic” argument is weak when you consider anything could happen with any trigger because of unknown magical bullshjttery following that logic. These events are negligible and to be disregarded. Rieker was cruel when he was driving home the point that a trio who felt invincible was very much not so? Sure, but to people who consider getting all their ribs shattered and muscles flayed just another Tuesday, that’s probably the level required for a visceral understanding.
yohan gu
I think you are mistaken about the kind of lesson they required. You make it appear like they’re in a white room and being told “compute this integral” without telling them what an integral is beforehand. Here, however, the situation is rather that they have a book on integration on the desk and they’re told to compute an integral. Will they just wing it or learn to use the resources at their disposal and open the book?
yohan gu
Could you expand on how does this change the way they should interface with the guild in the future? In an unhealthy way, that is, because if it’s looking into the target’s strength for themselves to decide if they’re up to the task, I’d consider that desirable
yohan gu
They had a win: their combat showing was excellent. But it was not an unmitigated success, it’s more bittersweet: they are extremely proficient at ravaging hordes of monsters, got plenty of experience, awakened an aspect and got an honour, BUT they failed on another level and this taught them a valuable lesson, that is different from the one that had learned when they discovered they were indeed not invincible.
yohan gu
Ro has to be sent after them in any scenario precisely if you want the guild to appear to be taking care of them, while they get to face challenges. Had they prepared and, as a consequence, had Ro not been sent, which seems to be what you’re suggesting would happen, they’d have faced an extreme threat without support. Now, that would be gambling with their lives that the threat was not so grave and would show incompetence in assessing the threat on the guild’s part. In general, if you want them to tackle hard missions, in which they can truly grow, but you also want the guild to be shown as invested in their survival, they’ll need supervision. In this instance they had the luck of being allowed to be put in a stress situation due to them not knowing of the supervision, that’s excellent and sadly will not be possible in the future
yohan gu
Ro was there precisely to make sure neither the job nor their life was in a serious danger (beyond the accidents of being literal monster hunters for a living). The depths idea would be good if they had a portal to bring them deep enough. Though they’d have to learn the lessons they got in this chapter somehow, and without the guild’s supervision they would probably have died doing so. If they don’t have a portal deep enough, they’ll need to to slowly go lower to find enemies that give them xp. Lower here means 10th level and beyond. Finding a guardian takes months, if they’d get in through the 3rd level, which is the one for which portals seem to be available, it would take them years to be able to reach a suitable xp farming spot. Taking missions until they can tackle the 22nd layer and take Rieker’s portal is faster. And they get privileged access to specialized and taylored training, including quickly buffing their more esoteric skills such as rapid adaptation through expensive supplies. Had they just been coopers forced to go on underleved missions without any assistance, but the risk of being found out by dynasties or the Onyx Temple, I’d have agreed. Now that is not the case.
yohan gu
This. Precisely this. Excellent synthesis
Weaver
I think it was a great learning arc. She still left us plenty of space to show their strength and grow their skills. She gave us some very sound advice. It's rare to have MC humbled and have failure/learning arc done without dire consequences (usually a death). Loved it personally.
zetorian
I get I'm late to the party here but I'll comment anyway. So, I liked this arc, but honestly I liked it because it shows the guild as a deeply flawed organization. Even through a hyper machismo lenses these teaching methods were straight up bad and Rieker was downright cruel in his sparring. During Rieker's spar, we saw him outright cripple them, without knowing the full scale of there abilities and placement. For a specific example, Kiaus's magic is completely unknown to Rieker. Sure, we as the reader's know that its possible for Kiaus to reinscribe and he can probably fix the glyph, but when Rieker ripped his hand off, he _couldn't_ know, and explicitly doesn't from his POV. For all Rieker knows, Kiaus has a blessed hand from some lucky encounter item or some shit and ripping it off will cripple him permanently or for a long time at least. Unlikely, sure, but entirely on-brand with this world where leveling too quickly locks you out of aspects. I won't bother enumerating the other ways the guild has been overly harsh, its been hashed to death. Here's why I like this. This is not a nice fluffy world, having the guild be harsh as shit not only makes sense, it'd be a bit difficult to believe otherwise. I think this sets up a pretty clear delineation that Kiaus will need to keep the guild at arms length, and I hope he does. We're seeing a fairly consistent character setup with Kiaus being incredibly angry with the human institutions being power hoarding beasts. The guild being as cruel and "break you down with hard knock lessons" type org is just another part of this. Our MCs came here with rose colored glasses, and theyre getting systematically destroyed. Kiaus is learning that this style of learning / existing isn't healthy as he comes to grips with how much humanity has lost and struggled in the past because of knowledge hoarding and cut throat tendencies.I think he is eventually also going to have to come to grips with the fact that his father was a deeply flawed man who raised him to hoard power, and not for a good healthy life or as a balanced human. He's not there yet, but with each advancement we're seeing the bloodlust peel back to something more calm and calculating, so I hope we'll get there. To sum up, I hope that the guild remains consistently shitty as an organization. I hope that Kiaus resents them for it. I hope, most of all, that as he and his team grow they manage to do better.
Tristan A
While I would like to reply to all the people in here, I'll just post this: How can this break "trust?" Everything was laid out for them and Ro was there so there was almost no possibility of them dying. Also, at the end of the day it is an organization, not their parents or friends, they are not responsible for delvers survival beyond a certain point. In fact other than Kauis team, the guild seems to function as mostly a way to organize, provide Intel, and reward adventurers. They have already gone above and beyond for Kauis team, pledging oaths of secrecy, FREE training, loaned equipment, personal quests to help them level, etc etc. And the only thing they needed Kauis' team to do was do some fucking research. Also to the people saying "Ro knew they would fail, so that's bad teaching," Ro knew they would fail AFTER they left the city without doing a lick of research, not because they gave them an impossible task. And even then Ro went with them so that the worse case for their failure would be a sense of failure and some injuries that will heal in a day. To the people saying "Ugh two back to back arcs showing Kaius' team failures," bro, we just had a hundred chapters of Kaius dominating in a dungeon with no class, killing every opponent he came across, winning every single battle, and coming out as one of the strongest people at his level. I think we can afford a few arcs of him being humbled, BUT still doing shit that no one else his level could do. At the end of the day Ro and Reiker are going out on a limb here, in a brutal world, to help three people that they as an organization have no obligation to personally help, beyond providing intel(IF ASKED FOR), rewards, and offering jobs. I say all of this because of comments such as "You utterly failed at this arc." It is OK not to like a story or vibe, but Bacon asked for constructive criticism, and seems like that opened the floodgates for personal or subjective criticism. In terms of what the goal of this arc was, what we know about world, what we know about the characters, and what was shown within this arc the goal has been met. TYFTC
Adunn
I mean, Ro sent them out to fail without even trying to teach them this beforehand. That seems like a shitty thing to do. You have to teach them first and then see what doesn’t stick when you’re out on the job. Then you know what to focus on. There’s a lot that the group would have been receptive to which would probably increase their chances but they weren’t even given that opportunity.
Andrew Glass
I thought it was pretty obvious what she was doing, and could and probably should have been way harder on them than she was. especially since it seems like only Kaius said any thing about reflection on his actions the whole time
Richard Reid
Nope, you utterly failed on this arc. Anyone with any self-respect would flip the guild, the bird and again as I stated previously go to the depths and just start working their way down because seriously fuck those people. I have worked in some fairly brutal fields as far as plumbing, electrical work, IT hardware for Savvis, and well, you haze the shit out of the new guys you don’t risk the job going wrong over it let alone someone’s life.
The Shard
Lemme tell you, if you think the trades are brutal let me introduce you to IT (hardware server side), around 3 out of 10 people with the technical skills can't hack the "nerds with attitude" prank wars that happen in server farms, I've had a firefighter tell us we were too scary.
BelligerentGnu
*eyeroll* Please. The entire quest was set up with the intention of them failing. You don't need to directly lie to deceive. And for that matter, fucking hell the goalposts on 'coddling' move further with every progression story I read. A single attempt at straightforwardly communicating what someone needs to work on is not coddling, it is the bare minimum needed to call something teaching.
John Ero
But it wasn't a lesson it was a test. They had been trained and thwm given a task. They where told its a very hard task, nearly impossible for their level. They where told it was an important task which failure would have serious consequences. The gravity of the situation was very well established and they made no preparation. Tests are presented to reveal inadequacies present so that they can be corrected. This allows for an actual lesson to then be presented. No matter how OP you are, prepare as much as you can.
John Ero
I disagree because there was no deception here in any way. They were given a task and was told it was way above them from the get go. Knowing this they still went half prepared which was in no way the guilds fault. If anything it brought to light again that even with all their advantages their not thinking in the most effective way possible and that's the lesson they learned here. The guild isn't there to coddle them but to make them absolute monsters. It doesn't make sense for them to gain a lack of trust when they know the fault is theirs not the guilds. It's not like the guild overestimated them and gave them something way above their pay grad unknowingly.
hmDrake
I'm not a fan of two "break you down" arcs in a row personally, and you're setting a pattern for reader expectations that the guild will fuck them over to 'teach them lessons' by having them so close together. I think you could fix reader expectations by having a brief scene where Reiker asks Ro what preparation they did, and sends her after them when he realizes they under prepared. It still hits the points you want in a smoother way.
omnis vir lupis
I find that Ro never really gave them the chance to succeed, because in reality they did destroy the mob that was after them, and they could’ve fought longer, Ro took that away from them. She should’ve swooped in at the moment before they fell, but she didn’t, therefore I don’t find this teaching as impactful as it could be. Mostly because I don’t feel like they were truly stressed to the breaking point like when they fought the guardian.
Ryan Hopkins
I feel like it came across properly that they were giving them a chance to learn while still having a safety net. I disagree with people that it breaks trust. They were told that they would be given missions that were on the edge of too difficult for them. It makes sense to have someone tail to make sure that their investment doesn’t go to waste their first time out.
Ryan Hopkins
I disagree, I think that these two arcs have been about different lessons that they need to learn to be able to survive this world beyond how to fight. This is still their overall training arc where they’re being shown where they’re lacking and given the tools to improve.
Anonymous8418
I think the biggest mistake you made here was having this story arc immediately following the previous. You should have spaced them out a bit more and given the gang a win or two before raining on their parade again.
Tim Judge
Thanks for being early. Gave me something to read after the morning departures. As for Ro's training technique....totally needed. Gotta let the good students dig bigger holes to get the lesson across.
BelligerentGnu
It's better than it could have been. I deeply agree with Teratolulene regarding the fact that the Guild didn't even try to take advantage of the party's obvious willingness to listen. Rieker's "extreme disappointment" speech also felt designed to push them into bad decisions so that the Guild could 'correct' them later. But again, and this relates to the first point, my main objection has always been that this breaks trust. From this point on, an additional lesson the party should learn is "take nothing the Guild tells us on board until we've personally verified it." Which is something that could get the party killed. A single attempt to teach the lessons via communication would have made every difference.
Jordan
Lessons learned through experiencing mistakes can often times be more impactful than ones learned through teaching. Without the feelings of what that failure costs, it might not internalized as fully. Sure Ro and Rieker could have told them verbally like other commenters mentioned, however that doesn't put them in the position to test themselves. I agree with this arcs intent and enjoyed it's creation. I work in mental health and I've worked in the trades in the past. In both industries you can't do the work for someone else, and any lesson imparted is 10x more effective when the individual comes to it on their own. The team learned to ask questions, to understand their limitations, and to say no to unreasonable tasks . When someone tells you that fire is hot, you don't really understand how hot until you get burned yourself. This is the same. It also served as a trust building exercise for the group, as they now more fully understand the lengths their benefactors will go to in order to support and teach them, but also to never trust blindly.
J J
I'm glad to see you've given up on deleting accidental early posts... now do 10 more today so I can have a bigger fix 😏
Ratoo
I agree with this. We've not seen anyone outright disregard any lesson offered to them, so it feels Ro and Rieker should attempt to use a conversation to pass along lessons, especially considering planning and preparation.
Colby Rob
I’ll be honest… I don’t think you need to worry about it not coming across that Ro is there for their safety. I assumed that was a given based on her past characterization and POV segments. I didn’t even consider her being there for some malicious purpose until you stated as much in your explanation. I would go so far that Ro being there for malicious purposes before this chapter is a nigh impossible interpretation given what we knew at the time.
Deividas Černega
I think it more adds to the fact that the depths are a crucible to forge yourself up, than a classical "kill-and-loot" dungeon. The lower levels let you fight and improve, but give you enough breathing room to recover - and they pace you, but don't grind you down. Kaius is good with sword and spell, but has little to no experience with real world expeditions, and how to apply the skills to a different situation. While his skills can win a battle, he still has to develop the logistics of the war, so to say. Tl;dr: this is not a "it was luck" situation, more so as a different set of skills - logistics of a battle vs the skills of it; the strategy vs tactics.
TETRATOLULENE
I would say the only issue I had with the lessons, was that neither Reiker or Ro tried to teach them before they messed up. You don't know, what you don't know kinda thing. While gruff hands on learning is a thing there is usually an attempt at education beforehand. Here there was none of that. It makes the teacher look less capable, knowledgeable, and caring. The guild basically said we will teach them if and when they don't die. This also goes against Kaius always being ready to learn, despite how hotheaded he is, and Porkchop always willing to listen to the wisdom of the elders, even if he decides against using it later.
Dylan
at the same time though, it feels like chasing honors and fighting enemies that massively outlevel them in the depths will necessitate doing stupid stuff that no sane adventurer would do.
Dylan
What you’re saying makes plenty of sense. I guess I’ve just been too focused on the non-overworld/adventurer stuff— kinda like our party in that sense lol.
Aureus
Also, I am in uni to be a teacher, it is a profession I truly admire. This entire chapter made it feel as if Ro is a better mentor than Reiker, and I would like to see more of this. Ro's gruff and surly nature really emphasizes the disappointment, but taking the time to explain and correct shows they care. It lies very close to my own personality and style of leadership.
Aureus
I actually very much like the teaching moments. All too often my eyes glaze over during combat sequences in stories, because most often any character development that occurs is by luck and brute force. The actual moment of reflection and internalization of a lesson is more satisfying as it feels more real to how we operate.
Joshua Little
Thanks for the chapter.
A B
I think it worked well. It showed the guild doing is job and pushing them hard enough to realize and really internalize that they have a LOT they need to learn, while also enduring they'd be alive to walk away with the lesson afterward. Good stuff. They gotta be challenged enough to push themselves and have the success be theoretically achievable but not so daunting as to be obviously impossible, which would just be frustrating and demoralizing. Tough to hit that zone when the work is potentially lethal.
Doubledoor
I'm fine with this, anyone who pays attention will see talented newbies who make stupid mistakes as well as gruff seniors who consider everything a stupid mistake they wouldn't make. It makes sense that some things only come with experience, even (maybe especially) in a world full of large scale magic and people casually breaking house sized hills with their fists. Seems essential for long-term world building if you don't want an overtly OP character.
Crapgeezer
I couldn't disagree more. Love this arc and it's just what I want to see.
Crapgeezer
Great job! To me it came across perfectly. Loving this arc and their growth! Being relatively OP is not the same thing as actual experience after all.
Bacon Macleod
Ro has stealth capabilities, but she is also really *really* fast--a big chunk is that she litterally just booked it. But yes, I should add a line about Truesight struggling against her skill -- it would make the most sense
BerciTheBeast
Quick question: when Ro left, how come True sight didn't struggle against the illusion a bit?
Bacon Macleod
it's not supposed to make their earlier accomplishments feel like luck -- Kaius and Porkchop are consummate fighters -- but it is supposed to emphasize the failings of their 'hit first, ask questions later' approach to combat, the general caution of the wider world, and the less rigid danger scaling of things outside the depths and the additional caution that requires. At the end of the day, the team is *very* green, even compared to teams of a lower level that take many missions very cautiously to see the same growth they have. This is, in my opinion, the only real 'loss' that the team has faced -- next mission will show the lessons they have learnt and internalised.
Dylan
I get that it’s setting up future development, but I suppose it isn’t the sort of development I want to see right now after we finished the delve arc with such major revelations + a whole new magic system.
Jon Simpson
I liked it. Kaius learning his lessons himself rather than just being lectured, and bringing some new insights into Ro's lessons, was perfect. Now onto loot!
Dylan
This whole guild arc is definitely less interesting than the delving arc at this point. All this talk about how poor they are as actual adventurers makes their prior accomplishments feel more like luck than skill on their part.
