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The Lord of the Rings is Gay as F*** = DFF #419

🕑 Added 2022-11-11 22:20:27 +0000 UTC

Comments

Pleb22

Yeah, I see what you're doing here. lol

Akephalos

"I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so..." Letters of jrr Tolkien and quoted various places

Akephalos

No, I'm talking Abt Tolkien saying he hated allegory and wouldn't use it. They don't exist on purpose.

Phoebe Ophie

The foreword you're referencing doesn't say it *isn't* an allegory - just that any potential allegories are up to the audience to find and see for themselves.

Akephalos

Lotr is NOT an allegory at all. Tolkien said this himself. So interesting but WRONG

Cam

While obviously a great deal is over the top, Paul does raise a lot of good points here. From the outset, it's important to establish two things: First, that Tolkien read a lot of gay literature. Second, that the relationship of Frodo and Sam is comparable to the relationships shared between gay couples in other novels. Gertrude Stein, Gerard Manley Hopkins, and Mary Renault, for example. In the case of the latter, I believe Tolkien was an unofficial editor of The Friendly Young Ladies, which was penned by Renault. And we can also note, just for ease, that Tolkien has never said anything against homosexuality. His friend, CS Lewis, burned gay fan letters. Tolkien never did such a thing, and as mentioned, would read gay literature. Tolkien was very clearly liberal enough to be comfortable with gays. He had a number of gay friends, such as the poet Geoffrey Bache Smith. And it's not the only gay friend that Tolkien would have. Before I go any further, there is a popular myth I'd love to debunk. The idea that Tolkien overdescribes everything. In fact, it's usually just the opposite. Exceptions are mostly for scenes of nature. The first book of Fellowship is pretty slow up until about the time the group arrives in Bree. To give examples, we very rarely get physical descriptions of characters, and Legolas had next to no backstory, and extremely little detail about him. No hair colour, no eye colour, just elven properties are described. Anyway, I'll just be focusing on the novels. Nothing about the films, just Tolkien and his direct works. Characters are all very kissy. All characters kiss each other on the lips, as was more the social norm. What stands out for Sam and Frodo though, is that Tolkien describes them NOT kissing. And this stands out as important. Why would you describe a pair of straight men as not kissing? At best, the most generous argument against Frodo and Sam being gay is that Tolkien deliberately muddies the waters between the batman relationship shared by officers and their orderlies between that of a gay couple. As we know, Frodo goes to the Undying Lands at the end of the books, and he leaves Bag's End to Sam, who marries Rosie, and lives in it as they raise their family. At some point, decades later, Sam himself chooses to leave his family, and to follow Frodo to be with him for eternity. As such, I love the metaphor of Frodo and Sam coming out of the closet. Frodo comes out at the same time as his uncle, and it takes Sam a very long time until he himself can accept it, and he leaves behind his family for his gay life. I think it's an extremely fair reading. Even if we take a more conservative reading, it means that the batman-type relationship is even more intimate than family. There's really no sound conclusion down that route. No straight main should leave their family to be with their best friend, right? I can't get a good argument against it. Bilbo obviously takes on the role of a gay uncle. It doesn't need to be said. Tolkien was straight, or at least bisexual. Either way, he was very devoted to his wife, and pretty much had his own fan fiction of himself and his wife, through Beren and Luthien. The Ring as a symbol of sex is also very easy to make. It's about temptation, and it's destructive.

J Allen

This is exactly why I continue to watch DFF. Lotr is a subject I've heard of hundreds of time's but Paul offered a new and interesting perspective that I never would have thought of myself. Great episode.

J Allen

Lord of The Gays

J Allen

How many friends did he lose? That's the first thing that comes to my mind. At least now you're just serving with a bunch of random ass holes because I imagine it would be much worse losing a childhood friend especially in war and especially if you watch him get blown up or something. I'd be sympathetic but I honestly wouldn't have been all broken up if someone in my company would have died because I chose not to get to know most of them.

Chipz

https://youtu.be/N73GXN_pb7g

Chipz

A little context: Britain at the time would let groups of friends sign up and serve together to encourage enlistment, so Tolkien signed up with all of his childhood friends and buddies and they fought the most horrific war in history together.

Chipz

While i do think that it can interpreted this way, I have to disagree. I hear this argument a lot and I think it takes away from the story a lot. The story is about love and sacrifice for your friends. Two men can love each other and not be gay. Tolkien went to war with with his best buddies in ww1 and lost many of them. He grew up with these dudes and they had a club for writing/the arts and stuff and then he had to deal with all of their deaths. The story is written with these pains and brotherly love/camaraderie in mind.

No name Maddox

Been listening to you guys for a while. Love this episode. Funny and thought provoking.

Jimmyslimd1ck

Now this..this is a masterpiece ✨️

Michael Sewell

saruman - sassy man

KriegmesserDCLXVI

Do you think that Spinach was symbolic of Amal Nitrate?

Skeptical Jesus

A glimpse into the Psyche of Paul ;)

M

Please, TJ. Your udders must be milked.

Roman Douchington

laughed for a straight hour and 40 minutes! pretty much the best episode out of 2022, in my opinion! fucking hilarious

Lucius Dante

God, I'm looking forward to this.

Lina

Oh my god, this is a fantastic episode already. Thank you!

JohnnyVoid

Your shtick is growing on me

kisamehoshigaki09

Gandalf is definitely also gay

Tito Manfredo

YOU LIKE TO FUCK THE HOBBITS? TITO MANFREDO LIKES TO FUCK THE HOBBITS!

SaveDFF

Paul, can you make last night's Highdeology public?

Ignar Husky

We studied the night before and Paul took it down so no one would cheat lol #WeWereThere Btw Paul I wanna listen to that stream again, bring it back lol