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OP07 Moria Theory - The Possibility of Removal Moria
🕑 Added 2024-08-07 23:54:06 +0000 UTCIntro (@Cross_Aii)
Similar to the last set, the Morias of this set seem to be split on whether to run removal cards like Ice Age or not.
LuffyTV recently got 2nd place with this Moria list: https://x.com/TheLuffyTV/status/1819538076256841823 ,and as you can see it utilizes zero ice ages, and instead focuses on value Morias, and RebHina + 6Sakazuki to clear 9-drops.
I actually think this build is super impressive, and is one of the strongest types of Moria decks I have seen in this set, but I still think this type of deck is inferior to Lucci.
Even though it has the ability to deal with huge units very conveniently (thanks to RebHina + 6Sakazuki), its plays are simply too weak compared to Lucci’s Moria combos. Being able to remove a huge unit is nice, but what really makes Lucci so broken is the ability to remove huge units while establishing a 9K and 4-drop of our own.
Although I think the power of this Moria deck is weaker than Lucci (due to its Moria’s combos being less stronger than Lucci’s), I actually think this deck would still have merit because of its potential performance in the Lucci matchup. BUt the other problem is that Lucci seeing Enies lobby may completely spin the matchup in Lucci’s favor, and Moria’s inability to play Moria, WHILE clearing Lucci’s Moria, may lead to getting overwhelmed by Lucci’s Moria’s overtime.
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Tl;DR I think Moria is weaker than Lucci, because Moria’s Moria combos are weaker than Luccis. So today I want to propose a type of Moria deck that I think is closer to Lucci in power level, and may even be able to surpass Lucci with more refining.
First let’s talk about this card:
Tempest Kick
Especially after the great eruption ban, this card was a godsend for black decks. It gave black a way to still do cheap cost reduction on the fly, while keeping our hand size high(that was a bar). But the only black leader that seems to use this card is Lucci.
Lucci reads “When attacking: You may trash 2 cards from the top of your deck.” But doesn’t Moria read the same thing?
This got me thinking of whether I could use Tempest Kick in Moria. Actually this idea is a bit unoriginal, as Kai asked me about this months ago prior to English OP07:
But my unoriginality aside, if Lucci can use this card, then there should be no reason that Moria can’t use this card. And you can argue “but Moria’s cards return 2 cards to the deck.” But unlike Luicci, not only does our deck have a mill 5, but we can also just not use these cards effects in the early-game, or we can do the ideal play of using Perona(Perona discards, without returning any cards back to our deck)!
Ok. So tempest kick is clearly usable, but are there even any combos with it?
Let’s take a look at Luffy TV’s List:
Tempest Kick would actually meet 0 thresholds in a deck like this. Tempest Kick + MoriaTsuruAbsalom would actually only be able to pop up to 7-cost.
Clearly this doesn’t work, but what if there were combos in the Moria list from prior to Great Eruption’s ban?
Let’s look at the goat, Ryan Hartmann’s Top 16 list (the same top that finally made people start playing 3Brook in their Moria decks):
If we look at this list, Helmeppo actually creates combos for us to use. Tempest Kick + MoriaAbsalomHelmeppo actually allows us to pop opposing 8-Cost Morias.
And IceAge + MoriaRebeccaHelmeppo + 3Brook, actually allows us to pop 8-Cost Morias, WHILE also establishing a blocker.
So the future of a removal Moria list actually seems to lie in Helmeppo.
So with this in mind, I’d like to draft an OP07 Removal Moria list!
Theorycrafted OP07 Removal Moria
I write “theorycrafted,” because this list hasn’t actually been tested yet, but I think the theory behind it is quite strong. There’s gonna be plenty of questions here, including the Shirahoshi 2K, so let’s go ahead and unpack.
First I want to talk about the 1-Cost 2K counter Tsuru.
Is this card still necessary in Moria? I lost to Moria as Lucci last Saturday, and I tested it against it for an hour to 2 yesterday. And I noticed both my Moria opponents never played Tsuru. They would always play Brannew from trash off Moria, and they never played Tsuru from hand in the early game.
Back in the old days, Tsuru could be combined with Ice Age + Great Eruption + MoriaLucciTsuru(or Helmeppo) in order to pop a 8 & 4-cost. This card could also be used in the early-game to pop a 4-Cost with Absalom.
But due to the great eruption being removed from the deck, we no longer aim for early-game clears with Tsuru + Absalom (we tend to just play Sabo or something instead). And reviving Helmeppo from trash does the exact same role as Tsuru.
So at this point Tsuru seems to purely be a 2K counter to be retrieved from Brannew. Which is still pretty impressive, But if I removed Brannew as a main piece of the deck, then I’d like to replace it in favor of other 2K counters.
That’s when I found this 2K counter:
Issho is everybody’s favorite card against BY Luffy because of the discard 2. Obviously the discard 2 being RANDOM is another appeal of Issho, but the MAIN APPEAL of Issho against BY is the discard two.
I need to make a whole separate article/video about why I believe Issho is mediocre against non-BY Luffy decks (it’s also good against Bonney, but we beat Bonney anyways?). But I also don’t believe Issho is that strong in non-BY Luffy in the first place, but I do think the discard two is nice. So what about a 2K counter that can also achieve this discard effect?
Discard Shirahoshi as a 2K counter
Shirahoshi is a card that not only discards BY Luffy’s hand, but also REQUESTS them to clear it. If they don’t open Garp they actually have to waste their leader swing against Shirahoshi. And even if they do open Garp, them resting Garp is actually positive for us, because we can attack into it and use our leader skill(BY Luffy should typically never attack with Garp in the early-game, because it gives us a free leader skill activation)!
Maybe I’m cooking too hard, but since I wanted to remove Tsuru from the list anyways, a 2K counter like this, that demands to be attacked into, and can discard BY Luffy’s hand, seems very appealing.
Let’s talk a bit more about Tempest Kick.
Typically Brannew is the card of choice as the “filter card,” in Moria. It fills our trash by 2, and can search from a wide variety of powerful cards, including IceAge. But what if we could achieve a similar effect with Tempest Kick?
Aside from Tempest Kick being used to combo with Moria in the late-game, I think this card can take a similar role to Brannew in the early-game. It doesn’t get to check top 3 and fill trash by two like Brannew, and obviously it can’t be revived from trash off Moria.
But this card is a raw draw one, which means it can draw into ANYTHING, it still fills our trash by 1card, and it’s guaranteed to let our hand break even(can’t whiff like Brannew).
Since I’m planning to revive Helmeppo off Moria 90% of the time anyways, it hardly matters that I can’t revive Brannew off Moria.
This card also gives me the flexibility to run powerful non-Navy cards.
If you still want to run a Brannew-like card, for the rare times that we would rather revive something other than Helmeppo off Moria, then also consider playing Inuppe.
This card can never plus, but it is a raw draw 2, which means it can add Morias directly to our hand!
These are the main cards that I wanted to discuss in the list. Now let’s look at the list again, and I’ll explain the rest of the card choices.
3 Blocker Rebecca - This card is really strong for our IceAge + MoriaRebeccaHelmeppo combo! In order to make up for the weakness of not being able to clear 2 units in the black mirror, Rebecca being a blocker helps compensate.
4 Cindry - This card sets up Tempest Kick almost immediately, and allows us to consistently get thriller bark units into our trash for leader skill.
4 Helmeppo - This is the card that makes the removal Moria deck still a thing. IceAge + RebeccaHelmeppoBrook allows us to clear opposing Morias. And Tempest Kick + Helmeppo + Absalom is a lower power way to still be able to clear Moria.
3 Cost Brook - This card can be used to play two units on the 6-don turn when going second, and it also gets revived for our Moria combos.
3 Hina - The strongest way to clear 5-cost units on our 6-don turn of going second, and just like Brook it allows us to establish 2 units on this turn. This card can also be combined with RebHina + Tempest Kick to pop 9-costs in the late-game.
12 Thriller Barks - This is just the ideal count to consistently play thriller barks early. And all their effects are super strong, so 4 copies of each. Perona discards opponents hand, Absalom is removal whenever we need it, and Hogback retrieves Moria. They’re all too strong.
5-Cost Sabo - This is probably the best 5-don turn play. Especially in black mirrors, if our unit from the 3-don turn lives, then we can seal it with Sabo on our 5-don! This can be insane tempo to get ahead of the Lucci matchup.
6-Cost Brook - BY Luffy tech. People finally adopted 6Brook as a way to combat BY Luffy, and I’ve literally been trying to run this card in Moria since OP06. I understand that we don’t have the minus 1 like Lucci’s leader, but RebHina + 6Brook can clear either their Moria or their 5-Cost Luffy, which is extremely powerful. And similar to the RebHina + 6Sakazuki combo, we can actually do RebHina + 6Brook to clear Moria.
1 8Issho - Honestly my head hurts too much to think of what to replace this with. I know people are a huge fan of Issho in Moria, so I decided to still include 1 copy. But similar to how I think Issho is cope in Lucci, I’m pretty sure it’s cope in this deck as well(unless you’re playing resource verson, then this card naturally has to be staple, especially with Brannews and stuff). In general I think there’s just so many better plays that we could be making.
When Brannew was being played in this list, I guess that was a huge incentive to play Issho, but with Brannew out of the list I might just remove it.
This card is mainly godly against BY Luffy, and it can be a decent 8-Don play against various decks, but I generally prefer to be more proactive. In black mirrors I’d be more satisfied with leader skill + Sabo on 8-don than Issho.
4 8Moria - GODLY.
4 IceAge - This decks strongest comp is IceAge + MoriaRebHelmeppo + 3Brook. Without this combo I would just play Lucci instead.
4 Tempest Kick - As explained earlier, this card is early-game filter, and it can be combined with Moria in the late-game.
Removal Moria vs Resource Moria
Last set Resource Moria was developed, because Moria’s removal was deemed to be worse than Sakazukis. And this set Resource Moria has seemed to surge again, due to Moria’s removal being worse than Lucci.
And prior to a build like this, I would agree with this claim. There seemed to be little purpose to playing Removal Moria, so if I were to play Moria, I’d probably play resource. But just like last set, I believed resource Moria isn’t good enough, so at that point I would just switch my deck to lucci. That’s why I decided to play Lucci, and I put Moria lower than it in my tier lists.
But with the creation of this list, and the potential of it, I think removal Moria has a place again. Thanks to the addition of Tempest Kick, our Moria’s can consistently be a powerful play. And Moria has the natural benefits of having a stronger early-game, and being able to retrieve Lucci, which are arguably good enough reasons by themselves to play Moria. But obviously Lucci has the legendary Enies Lobby highroll, so it’s hard to decide which deck to play.
Wraith also made this comment earlier today about Removal Moria compared to Resource:
There seems to be a misconception that eventless Moria is somehow better into Lucci than Moria, and I’m here to claim cap. Assuming both players draw well enough and are playing well, eventless Moria should not be stronger, The strongest plays I believe you can make against Lucci as Moria are either a) A Sabo combo (ideally while removing something on the opponent’s board) or b) A moria combo while removing an opposing Moria.
The Moria + Bors combo is fire and all, but you’re not actually interacting with this opponent’s board. This combo only becomes insane after you’ve forced your opponent down to 1-life, so you can force a lethal attack with Moria + Borsalino.
And obviously Sabo combos can be performed, regardless of which Moria version we are playing.
Conclusion
This is it for the article for now. I really wanted to try Moria with tempest kick in it, but haven’t gotten a chance to test it yet, so I wanted to create this article for those daring to try it.
I will also do more research on the Resource Moria build, but I am very positive I believe Lucci is just better than it.
I was having a weird day yesterday, where I was just recovering from feeling sick, and I was misplaying(or maybe it was just sim misclicks?) like crazy against Moria. And yet I was somehow still winning by 20 miles. I’m talking about accidentally not clearing their Moria, and still winning lmao, like the difference in what I could do, and what they could do, was crazy. My board just overwhelmed them, because I could actually remove cards, while they couldn’t.
If any of you have already done testing on tempest kick build, please let me know, I’d like to hear other people’s thoughts, so I can refine this list. And if anyone can think of more arguments for what Resource Moria does better than Removal Lucci, I’d love to hear those arguments as well.
With that being said, I will catch y’all in the next one, peace.
