mcdm
patreon
End of the Second Day
🕑 Added 2023-01-18 18:36:38 +0000 UTCSo What’s It All About?
We don’t necessarily want to make a generic fantasy game. We sorta got one of those already, don’t we?
Well what’s the alternative? Probably the alternative is; it’s about something. Pendragon is about Chivalry and the Arthurian Romances and your character is defined by the chivalric virtues and vices. They are actually your stats.
The Star Wars RPG isn’t about the Force, but it is about Good vs Evil! Among other things. And the Force Die gives that theme some teeth with Dark Side and Light Side points.
Well, “fighting monsters” isn’t really a theme like that. It’s more of a “what are we doing?” not a “why are we doing it?” So it’d be nice if we knew “WHY are you fighting monsters?”
We started by imagining it might be literally Law vs Chaos. And the final product might have something to do with that. These are classic ideas in fantasy roleplaying, prominently featured in Elric of Melniboné, but after talking about it, it seemed unlikely that one huge, overarching theme would work for us, given everything we want to do.
Vasloria is our Medieval Europe analog and we figure it’ll probably feature some very old school kind of play. Probably not literally dungeon crawling, it’s still Heroic Fantasy, but you might fight an army of Hobgoblins who worship Tiamat and are trying to conquer the area. That seems like something adventures in Vasloria might try and do.
But heroes in Capital, The City of the Great Game are way more worried about politics and factions and alliances. They still fight a lot of monsters! But the why is a little different. The tone is different.
Furthermore, our Space Fantasy multiverse, The Timescape is an entirely different set of assumptions. It’s way more Guardians of the Galaxy (or, maybe The Starjammers) which is to say Space Opera?
So if you imagine the Force from Star Wars, and imagine making a Force mechanic with Dark Side points and Light Side points, you can see how you could run LOTS of different adventures in the Star Wars universe, and that mechanic would have different meaning in different games.
Does your game feature Jedi PCs? Well then the force is a resource they use and manipulate. It’s just a tool for them. Whereas Hal Nightlancer (Matt’s PC in Mark Hulmes’ Star Wars campaign) has never met a Jedi, there aren’t any around here, and there might not even be any left alive. It’s much more Andor than A New Hope.
In that context, the Force is still real! It’s a real thing with a mechanic that affects the game, but none of the heroes are in control of it the way Jedi are. And that creates a very different tone. Same mechanic, but since the PCs can’t access it like Jedi can, it becomes more of this background force that affects everyone. It ebbs and flows, and we can use it, but only in a very limited manner.
Another way of looking at the Force in an Andor-style game is; Matt Colville can decide to use a Light Side point to add a Blue Die to his pool, but Hal Nightlancer has no idea this is happening and probably doesn’t even realize his success was in some way related to the Force. The Force is subtle when there’s no Jedi around.
So we can imagine different campaigns feature heroes fighting for different reasons. Is there some generalized mechanic, like Law vs Chaos, that’s just contextualized differently in Vasloria vs Capital vs The Timescape? Maybe! We talked about that.
But maybe it’s not the campaign you’re in that determines “why are we fighting?” It’s the villain.
At the start of the game, the players (and, often, the GM!) don’t really know who the villain is yet. You don’t need an Ajax the Invincible to start playing in a tavern and maybe get into a fight.
But as you play, there’s this generalized mechanic you track. Could be Fate or Fortune/Misfortune, could be Law vs Chaos, and these results (if, indeed, they are results. Like a Law symbol and a Chaos symbol on the dice) just power/affect some generic abilities. Barbarians like getting Chaos results, Paladins like getting Law results?
You can imagine that. But then at some point you discover “Wait! These guys are wearing the symbol of House von Glauer! OH NO!” It’s a big reveal, who the villain is. And from that point forward, these symbols start to mean something specific. Specific to von Glauer and his minions. Only von Glauer’s agents can use the Chaos symbol to power The Red Tax ability that drains your vitality or whatever.
Wow. Now that starts to feel like something. The game is about something, and we have this broad, generalized mechanic you can use in any game, at any level, but we also provide adventures with Villains who run Organizations (very MCDM!) and they get to use this mechanic uniquely.
If we do a good job? Then GMs will go “Ok, I get it” and be able to come up with their own. I.e. we don’t need to tell you what your game’s about. YOU can decide that, invent a villain that represents it, and give their org some dope ability that the generalized mechanic “grabs on to.”
Will this actually be in our game? Is this how anything in our game works? We have no idea. But this is how we find out how our game works. So far, two days of talks, it certainly feels like we’re on the right track.
We’re talking about the right things. How will this manifest in the end? No one knows….
Comments
James Kenney-Prentiss
PS: Ambiguous doesn’t mean empty. In fact, I don’t think one could get more colourful and “lived in” than the Ancient Greek plays and myths, Shakespeare, and the like. Even Harry Potter is sufficiently ambiguous with its different characters, which perhaps is one of the main reasons why so many people have found it so compelling. Surely, Harry Potter would have been a lot more boring if the story read “Good guys are all good. Bad guys are evil bad guys who do bad. Good guys win.” But sadly, that’s how a lot of modern Hollywood productions make their stories. Maybe to not offend or to take a point of view? As long as it’s about ‘family’…
James Kenney-Prentiss
Hi there! I’m new to backing this project and am very excited about it. Allow me to offer the following thoughts re: ‘what is this game about’ (trying to shift+enter isn’t working on my iPhone). What makes Shakespeare and Greek Tragedy and Greek Mythology and Gilgamesh so compelling, whereas other modern and ancient stories fail to still compel us today? One word: Ambiguity. The stories that hold up are ambiguous enough to allow for each generation of reader to project their own culture, thoughts, and opinions unto the world of, say, Hamlet. Is Hamlet the good guy? Insane? Evil? A do-nothing? A free-thinking hero? An anti-family and anti-order villain? All of these are possible readings. Same, too, with Theme. You could have Hamlet be about a myriad of things, even contradictory things, depending on how you, as director (or how the DM, at the table), present it. So, Law vs Chaos is a really potent and timeless dichotomy. It could be seen in Hamlet, Gilgamesh, Ancient Greek hero myths, and all the other things above. But, so too can other diametrically-opposed ideas that one could put on a spectrum. Law vs Chaos. Family vs Society. Individual vs Group. Group vs Group. Might vs Intelligence. Immortal gods vs mortal men. Good acts vs good consequences. The list goes on. And, as you will have probably noted, a lot of these tensions are the tensions of being a human being. Our morality (i.e. Aristotle’s golden mean) and our humanism is constantly in tension between varying virtues. In fact, in the real world, even the most evil of people don’t see themselves as evil, but see themselves as either righteous in a cause or victimized and therefore justified. Thus, the story, and the TTRPG itself, should reach beyond simply ‘law vs chaos’ and instead might do the community good by offering an ambiguous, fully fleshed out tableau for every table to draw out their own specific, tension-filled and compelling story. (I’ll try typing on my computer next time - sorry about the formatting!)
Edward Bennigsen
S-tier thoughts here, Matt
Otto
*reads law and chaos* *reads organizations* Oh yeah, this is what I was expecting. Balance. A mechanic recently published with the Avatar RPG by Magpie Games. But this is already different.
Dayten Rose
We've been playing a lot of Marvel Legendary lately, which is one of those games where you start by drawing a Scheme and a Mastermind and those create special rules for the game, based on who the villain is and what they're trying to actually accomplish. The Seattle game has regional effects, which are great for a villain exerting influence over the adventure, but those are explicitly geographical and leave a lot of court. No "special rules." (I think the Seattle Olothec gets pretty close.)
Jon Anderson
I do love the dichotomy of Good vs. Evil that can be easily re-skinned or or variant modified to order/chaos, growth/entropy or other combinations. Is it a lovecraftian cosmic horror twist where you dance with sanity-rationality / Unknown-bizarre-mind-bending as two poles? Though of course now I start to ask must it live on a 1-dimension line, could we even have a 2D space sometimes (imagining a classic good/evil line, and ALSO an order/chaos line… both operating simultaneously). REgardless, so exciting to get to involve everyone so minutely in the process! :)
Graham Schofield
I think something that d&d did poorly was presenting its variant rules as just an unorganized group of options. Similar to how classes and subclasses are 'packages of rules put together to create a specific theme' I think putting packages of rules to help a GM create a specific tone/theme would be very helpful. For example being able to provide more coherent options for a timescape game could look like one set of options for 'flash gordon', one for 'star wars', one for 'star trek', and one for 'the expanse'.
Kip Kwiatkowski
The difference between D&D and Star Wars RPG is that the game was made and defined the story. Which is fine, but it pidgeonholes what you can play. Whereas with D&D the game exists in isolation of the story, it gives you freedom, it allows you to imagine and create anything. This is the key to its popularity, much like Skyrim. People WANT to modify things, people WANT to live in their fantasy. Generic Fantasy invites modding on this level. Then, as with D&D, published modules can define various stories. You can have your Space Opera, your Western, your clash of elemental forces in opposition, your heavy horror, or your sweeping political campaign; all prepared and easily referencable in their module.
Kip Kwiatkowski
What's wrong with generic fantasy? The beauty of it is you can fit it to ANY story set in FantasyLand. If I want to run a story based on Malazan or Stormlight, or recreate the Roman Conquests, or weave a tale of woe and misfortune for a band of teenage gothic n'er-do-wells; I can.
Roosevelt Cooper
Sounds really cool and creative! Loving these updates!
Michael Hughes
I'm really enjoying these emails showing some of what goes on in designing a TTRPG. Thank you for sending these out, it's very dope to see a game made from the ground up!
MostlyAverage
If the MCDM version of a "generic fantasy game" is anything like the MCDM version of a generic monster book. Then I'd be more than happy to see a generic fantasy game from you guys. I'd love it if your new game was just: D&D, but better xD
Nolan
Really loving the whole polar opposite overarching force/theme stuff, I was already thinking about having Law vs. Order be a major part of my next campaign, so I'd love to see this thought over more (and hopefully explained a bit more in detail with an example if you can :).
Nolan
WOOT fellow cosmere fan ftw. Sounds dope!
Reinout van der Schalie
I think one should be careful in trying to make a system that covers many different kinds of fantasy. If you try to make a system that does both star wars and game of thrones you're probably going to end up with something that's pretty meh at both.
Kurt Anderson
I think he stuck his toe into those waters with the "Designing a Firearm Mechanic video." From what I could tell, much of the audience focused on 'the pointing finger' rather than on 'the moon' (so to speak).
Sam Jenkins
I had a similar idea for my heartbreaker game "Death Labyrinth", in which "The Labyrinth" (DM) plays a solo game before group play begins. You first choose a "Heart" for your dungeon (e.g. The Great Dragon), and build out from there, establishing thematic factions of monsters and badguys that inhabit the dungeon and make moves against each other, pushing each other into higher and higher levels of the dungeon, becoming weaker and weaker, and eventually spilling out onto the surface.
Roman Penna
Oooh this is cool, never thought about how a single mechanic could be used in different stories/tones that's really interesting, and some really cool design.
Adam W. Lafferty
I'm really loving reading these ideas. Good to hear the creative juice is flowing over at MCDM!
David Paccagnini
I feel like these glimpses into the development of a ttrpg will, through osmosis or otherwise, inform how I operate as a GM (I am relatively new). I can already see how the questions (and answers) posed in these entries give me just that little bit of insight to make decisions on the fly with a bit more confidence.
Vivas Kaul
Matt you should do these updates in a series of YouTube videos called —wait for it!— “Designing the Game”.
Mentalic
Gotta disagree. I love funky dice (though I agree that huge dice pools can be a problem). The less mathy the game feels, the better, IMO. Can't wait to see what they cook up.
Jacob Montague
Neat!
Brian Diehl
Dang. Super cool idea. Just having a track for building tensions and conflict as part of the core game is soooo slick.
Nick Rowland
I've never been a fan of the "read the tea leaves" form of dice. Certainly not the cheap and unbalanced dice FFG goes for (seriously, one study of the X-Wing dice showed that dice choice was the strongest buff available in v1 of the game). That being said, having a d6 on the side that determines crits or something if you get high or low depending on your class' preference... seems like it could work without introducing the excessiveness of an FFG style dice pool.
Robert Casserly
Why not create a set of core rules for all types of games? A light sabre hits in the same way a sabre hits but instead of 1d6, it does 1d12. It’s still melee combat at the end of the day, weather it’s Luke Skywalker or Arthur Pendragon wielding the blade. We just need a core set of rules for combat, movement, initiative, resting etc etc. We need a way to create characters that works across the board. Break characters down into Magic users and Martial characters. Give us a list of abilities we can choose from, every time we level up. No extra hit points, no extra proficiency (unless it’s in the chosen ability) Maybe a bunch of requisite abilities to get more potent abilities. Players can decide what powers make their characters unique. Perhaps a small starter area for our group of characters to start in. A small village with fleshed out NPC’s. Perhaps a funnel adventure to start us on our way from 0 to level 1 to get us into the village. Campaign settings would be awesome, but after the rules are published, fleshed out towns, spaceports, dungeons, castles… but first… core rules to cover everything. Oh and instead of publishing titles with small changes to the rules, please just update the core rule book with the new rules in it… that would be heaven too… I don’t want to carry 8 different rule books, when I just can carry the latest edition. I apologise for intruding, but I thought I would toss in my 2 cents. I know whatever you come up with will be amazing, I look forward to giving you even more of my money in the future.
Musical Coder
I know these may be a pain in the rear to write and keep up about, and I know that you won't be making these everyday... But I absolutely love these! I love that I'm able to get a brief glimpse into the game design side of how you will put together the MCDM RolePlaying game... whatever cool ass name you come up with!!!
stephen sayers
I use a similar Idea of dark and light in my homebrew campaign. Its tied directly into my magic system. I love reading the Stormlight Archives by Branden Sanderson. I love how the spren interact with individuals they feel are worthy. these "spren" in my world are a primary source of magic. The gods are absent due to fighting back a primordial evil that threatens to break through into the world. This barrier they create is where the "spren" of my world come from. A part of each gods essence bleads from them as they fight back to plug the rift. This is how "spren" are created. Some are self aware. Able to choose who they gift with magic. Others are wistful and just float through the ethereal plane, these are tapped into by spell casters and used as a source of their power. The dark entity trying to break through also bleads off these "spren", creating darker monsters and manipulating weak minded beings. I find this gives my games something central that brings my world to life in a way that really is fun. My players are currently planning a heist to free some captured "spren" that are being experimented on by an evil faction in my games. Sorry if this is not relevant to what you posted above. Its just what my mind went to when reading your post. Happy to share more if people are curious.
RuhroRubbinz
Not just that. Wouldn't it be amazing if the villain were some abstract concept? They're not fighting "Veligor the Arcane" but apathy say, or bigotry.
RuhroRubbinz
And that makes me think we've got a great "about" available to us: the game is explicitly about the epic side of heroic fantasy. From the ground up players are pitted against something bigger than them and the mechanics allow them to build the smaller adventures into a larger arc.
Evan Welsh
I really like how your presenting an evil association as a villain instead of a single monster. I could really enjoy the idea that playing a specific class rewards you in following the goals of the class. When you say "Paladins like getting order results" it makes me think about how 4E D&D artifacts work. By making choices that match the ideals of the artifact you get mechanical benefits. I could see this applied to class and race choices in a different system where you get rewarded for following the ideals of the class. This could potentially limit the variety of a single class. But would encourage players to make dynamic choices and do daring deeds because they know there is a reward for it. There could even be a character builder options to determine these ideals and their mechanical benefit so that multiple characters in the same class still feel unique and different. I'm sorry that's a tangent... TLDR: I love the ideas, they give me a lot of my own ideas that could help foster dynamic play. I eagerly await future updates.
Omar Benmegdoul
(For the record, my fantasyland has deities that do that, depending on whether their constellations are visible.)
Omar Benmegdoul
I like the Force being something that ebbs and flows in a star wars game. But having Law vs. Chaos be something that randomly gets powered up in my fantasyland? Not sure.
RuhroRubbinz
So to bring it back to the Force dice, it's always "The Force" but fundamentaly represents the power and influence of the villain? Have to say, I like that especially as it can build a sort of balancing mechanic where as it's spent it turns into a resource for the players. But maybe the players need to do some work first? The reason the enemy is strong to start is because they have lots of allies, lots of resources allowing them to spend all that influence they're developing. Until the players have found a few allies or built a few strongholds, they are always going to be on the back foot in every encounter, so you're limited by the amount of infrastructure you have built up in terms of how much of that meta resource you can spend during an encounter or adventure. The turning point in the game comes when you've built up enough resources that heroes can spend bonuses faster than the enemy.
christopher northcutt
Sounds like a productive day. Your all kicking ass. Love the ideas.
Mentalic
I like the idea of helping DMs craft tangible overarching villains with faction mechanics. This could go a long way towards making disparate adventures feel less disjointed and giving individual flavor to different campaigns.
Robin Baggett
The juices are flowing!
SirKarkus
I often thought about adding a similar mechanic to my home game. Almost a reputation system, but rather than determine what factions like or dislike you, it determines what factions are stronger or weaker because of your actions. I’ve never gotten far enough in design to play-test however. Now’s a good a time as any!
John Robinson
Reminiscent of the wyrd in Beowulf. (I haven't played Star Wars RPG or read its rules, so I have no idea how the Force mechanic works.)
Lev Vaesinis
Trying to tie the ending back into the start: so is the game about the party acting against/opposing a villain/villainous organization? That sounds general enough to be useful for most stories while still not being generic; I can probably think of a way where that could have applied to most of my campaigns (except for the ones where there were 3+ competing factions for my party to choose from to support/oppose)
Sean Scanlon
Thank you for these insights to what's happening.
Peter Bess
I love this! A general mechanic used in different ways dependent on the org or big bad or big good using it. Very interesting.
Zachary Durst
I think I’ve always liked alignment abstractly because good/evil law/chaos in conflict (and mixtures of each dichotomy interacting) are interesting. Each axis adds texture to the other.
