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Weapons
🕑 Added 2023-06-13 22:24:13 +0000 UTCSo how will weapons work in this game?
Well I don’t know how it will work, I only know how it works right now, so let’s talk about that! But I encourage you to keep in mind than this is just our current thinking; we’ve been testing it, it seems to be working, but much larger systems have been changing underneath it and that makes it hard to tell if the weapon design is good and robust and doing what we want, or if it’s just “not awful” and not getting in the way.
Later in this post I’ll share all the weapons we’ve prototyped and you’ll have a LOT of opinions about that design and those choices. Whether this trait makes any sense, whether this weapon should have that trait. Etc… Well, we also wonder about all those same things. But you gotta start somewhere and we like this design. It seems promising. So if we discover problems with it through actual play, we’ll try to solve those problems before we decide we need to scrap the entire thing and try something else.
So what are weapons in this game about?
Traits not Damage
(Well one of the traits is Brutal which actually DOES increase your damage, but only by like 1 to 3 not an entire die.)
The basic idea is; weapons don’t do damage, you do damage. If you’re a greataxe wielding Fury, your Might is what’s doing the damage, if you’re a dagger-wielding Shadow, your Agility is what’s doing the damage. Or whatever stat the abilities you chose use, a Shadow could have a Might-based ability!
We want to avoid a scenario where each class has a “best weapon.” But what’s the alternative?
Style
Instead of describing each weapon in terms of how much damage it does, 1d12 vs 2d6 or whatever, we want to explore the idea of your choice of weapon being about you, the player, choosing how your character fights, or rather, what is your character trying to do in combat?
We want to support all the classic archetypes: the dagger-wielding thief, the greataxe wielding berserker, but we don’t want to require the Shadow to use daggers or the Tactician to use a longsword. We will probably still have “weapon proficiencies” so classes will still function as archetypes (it would be very weird and possibly fantasy-breaking for the Fury to go Dual Daggers for instance) but the martial classes will all have a wide variety of weapon profs.
So the choice of weapons isn’t about “which is best for this class” it’s more about “how do I want to fight?” Or “what do I want to be doing in battle?”
The Traits
This is actually going to be a pretty short update! Because I’m just going to list the traits, and then post a chart with the current (also the first!) draft of the weapons. Keep in mind that most weapons will have more than one trait, and all weapons also have Types, like Light, Medium, Heavy. And you’ll notice that most heavy weapons are Brutal, most Light weapons are Fast, but decoupling these things means we could have a Light weapon that isn’t Fast if we thought that was a good idea. It’s flexible.
Under the actual weapon listing, each trait is followed by a number like Brutal 1 or Bludgeoning 2. You’ll see why!
Bludgeoning weapons knock your target back, so Bludgeoning 1 knocks your target back one square. This should probably be thought of as “+1” since you could be using an ability that already has knockback and if your weapon is Bludgeoning, it will add to that value, knocking them back farther.
This is working pretty well, players like this as a property when they see it and, having chosen it, they seem to like the knockback effect. Knockback damage (i.e. you were knocked back 3 squares, but hit a wall after moving 1 square, so take 2 damage) is easy to calculate on the fly and it makes the game feel very dynamic.
Brutal weapons just do more damage. +1 or +2, small amounts, but all the traits stay in the 1 to 3 range right now. Though with this system, we can always boost these numbers to make certain traits as useful as others if necessary.
Burst weapons automatically do +1 damage to X additional, adjacent enemies. So if you attack a goblin with a Burst 2 weapon, two other adjacent goblins also take 1 damage. Titles or class abilities could increase that burst damage.
This helps us simulate weapons like a Quarterstaff the idea of which is; this weapon is so light and well-balanced that after I attack this goblin, I get to *smack* some other nearby goblins for free. Remember: fixed damage like this ignores armor and cannot be countered.
Deflect. Weapons with this property increase your Defense, which blocks incoming damage. Currently we think this is what makes Medium weapons, like a longsword, cool. They are heavy enough to block some incoming damage, but light enough that you can actually get them into position to block some of an attack, unlike a Heavy weapon.
This is also cool because it means we know what Shields do (Deflect 2!) and can just treat them like another weapon. Another thing you hold in your hand during combat.
Fast weapons are so light that, before someone can attack you, you can stab them. So a Fast 1 weapon inflicts 1 damage on an enemy attacking you in melee, and that damage happens before their attack. Dangerous to attack someone wielding two fast weapons!
Guarding weapons increase your Parry value. Parry is a triggered action some classes (mostly martials) have that lets them boost either an adjacent ally’s defense, or their own. Tacticians are great at parrying and therefore, possibly, granting allies a Counter when the Parry increases their defense enough that an incoming attack is wholly blocked.
Riposte weapons do bonus damage when Countering! Not all Counters are melee attacks, but the ones that are can be increased by a Riposte weapon. A Talent probably wouldn’t bother with a Riposte weapon, as their Counter is probably a ranged mental thing, but there could be melee Talent builds!
That’s All The Traits!
So far, after a few tests, these seem to be working. I’m sure this will change a lot as we start testing more, but the goal was to make different weapons cool and useful in different ways, and deliver on some classic fantasies. Make dual wielding daggers cool and about as useful as a Greataxe. I don’t think there’s any established fantasy where a longsword boosts your defense, but giving the longsword ANY cool property apart from just base damage seems pretty cool to me. 😀
If you think about it, some of these traits are basically the same trait going in different directions. Brutal does bonus damage when you attack, Fast does that same damage when you are attacked. But tactically they are not the same: one is about focusing down one enemy, the other is about doing damage to multiple enemies attacking you in melee. It’s also important to remember that choice of weapon is mostly for the Martial classes. Spellcasters can use weapons! But it’s probably not their main thing.
And the numbers with each weapon will really change, I think. It's a very powerful way to make sure each weapon "competes" with all the other weapons.
Will these differences prove significant enough to warrant breaking them all out as different traits? We don’t know! That’s what testing’s for! 😀
But there’s more! Apart from Traits weapons also have a Type: Light, Medium, and Heavy. And these have mechanical effects as well.
Types
The only thing that differentiates one weapon Type from another is how they affect the Overwhelmed condition.
It’s been a while since we talked about this, but Overwhelmed is a condition you suffer in combat if there are three or more enemies adjacent to you. If so, they all get a Boon Die on weapons attacks against you! That is super bad! It is devoutly to be avoided. Well, what type of weapon you’re wielding can affect this.
If you’re only wielding Light weapons you are harder to overwhelm. It takes four adjacent enemies to overwhelm you.
If you’re wielding a Heavy weapon you are EASIER to overwhelm! Because your weapon is literally heavy, it’s harder to get it into position quickly to defend yourself, so you are overwhelmed if there are only two enemies adjacent to you.
So far this seems to be working. I was a little concerned that remembering this would be an issue? But what seems to happen is; a second enemy gets adjacent to you and so you and the Director start thinking “Uh oh, Overwhelmed is coming…,” and that causes at least one player at the table to call it out and now you and the Director remember the weapon you’re using and how it affect this.
But who knows? Maybe remembering which characters have which weapons and how they affect the Overwhelmed condition is too much to remember in the heat of battle? That won’t surprise us. Just gotta test it more and see!
Dual Wielding
Currently, we think if you are wielding two weapons you just get all those traits. But we limit how many weapons can be dual wielded so things don’t get crazy. But it’s fun when things get crazy, so I’m sure there will be Titles or whatever that let some characters wield a Heavy weapon in each hand!
The Weapons
This is the actual list of weapons we’re using right now in testing. This is from the actual “Gear” doc where we’re doing this work.
The basic rule is: axes tend to be brutal, swords tend to be guarding, and maces and hammers tend to have bludgeoning.
Some of these choices may seem weird to you? Well they probably seem weird to us too, but it’s a work in progress. Like, shortbows being Fast and Longbows being Bludgeoning? And Bludgeoning 2?? Well it's easy for us to imagine Legolas’ bow as a shortbow and he’s shooting orcs as they rush toward him, *plinking* them before they can even get an attack in. Similarly, the idea that a Longbow is actually good for something apart from “range so extreme it almost never comes up” seems like a good idea. Maybe a longbow only needs to be Bludgeoning 1? We’ll see. But gosh it’s fun to hit someone with an arrow from a longbow and have them go flying backwards.
That’s it folks, that’s the Weapons post! I’m sure there are other games with weapons that work like this, but for us decoupling your choice of weapon from how much damage you do, and instead making it about how you fight, is a Big Deal.
I hope it works! 😀
Comments
Kevin R Burford
Strongly agree with Zeyami above. If "Bludgeoning" was called "Knockback" the name would evoke the effect it has on the game without sounding too techinical. This looks awesome! I love the bold idea of not changing the damage dice at all for different weapons.
Chappy Hall
I think this is really neat. There is an OSR live play I follow where they use homebrew weapon rules similar to this where your weapon doesn’t decide damage it just has certain properties. It is awesome because it makes a lot of sense that a trained warrior can do a ton of damage with either a well placed stab or a cleaving axe swing. It also makes weapon choice more interesting instead of just big die better. Excited to see how this system develops or changes.
Zeyami
This is awesome. I think the reason bludgeoning sounds weird on the longbow, is that bludgeoning isn't describing the effect but rather the wound.
Tony Sladky
As simeoeh
Ryan
I think a weapon upgrade/customization system could be neat. Give the players a chance to fine tune the traits and stats of their weapons so they feel more connected to the weapon.
dillin brawner
It would be cool if some of the monsters or enemies had auto-damage counters. So the Fast weapons, or anything that ignored armor absorption had a specific counter built into specific enemies. Maybe instead of (or in addition to) absorbing damage with armor from attacks, the enemy can absorb Fast or RAW damage and counter when the absorbed damage falls to 0. I don’t know why but I think of displacer beasts being an example of this; they attack the Shadow, he’s wielding a dagger and auto damages before the displacer’s attack but, the beast’s special trait activates where it counters the auto-damage with a special counter, an additional attack or auto-damage. It would definitely make you think twice about your weapon choices during combat.
NoSmallParts
A bunch of cool ideas here! Really looking forward to seeing how they flow and jive with the broader whole.
J Farthing
Looking good. I'd personally like to see the spear represented but I figure it looks easy enough for players or the director to design their own weapons that follow the general idea (or tweak the existing ones if players want to litigate that a particular weapon should have reach or whatever).
Maciej
I've loudly exclaimed "yes!" when reading that shields will be just weapons with the Deflect property. Also really happy with weapons not being tied to damage, spavelin + shield archetype really needs better representation than what we got in D&D.
Edward Welsh
Would there be a benefit to keeping one hand free? Would there be any situation where you'd want to hold just a dagger in one hand for instance.
Lane Hillard
I had this exact thought, having heavy weapons somehow affect a possible stamina system is a neat idea. You could apply this to heavy armor too, plate armor doesn't really make you "slower" per se, but you can't be fast for very damn long lol. But like you said authenticity doesn't always come in higher than fun, I'm just excited to see what they come up with!
Dave
I would note that, perhaps contrary to the above assumptions, many Heavy weapons are explicitly good at keeping multiple enemies at bay. You have lots of reach and momentum, and while sure, if everyone dogpiled you they could bring you down, nobody wants to be the one guy who went in a little fast and got cleaved. If everyone dogpiled the guy with two knives, sure, one or two of you are getting stabbed, but if you have even minimal armor, or grapple them and pin an arm, it's much safer than trying to grapple someone swinging a greatsword around. The actual downside to heavy weapons is that you get tired faster using them. Just a thought. Sometimes fun comes in higher than authenticity on the scale, and that's fine.
MCDM Productions
The defender does 1 damage to the attacker.
BasCB
I guess that would be about how you USE the sword - giving different manoeuvres for attacking (or defending?) with one or with both hands that affect the result (2handed means bigger impact, 1 handed more versatile/enabling to hold something in the other hand)
Firstbourne
What happens when someone using a Fast weapon attacks another combatant wielding a Fast weapon? ... Also, I'm loving this update! Looking forward to more.
Murilo Trigo
Deflect, Guarding, and Riposte can also create interesting choices for Shields.
Aidan Boyle
Is the ability you use for damage (might vs. agility vs. whatever) solely determined by class, or does weapon choice play a role in that?
GubDM
I notice the longsword is one-handed. I get that that's traditional, but I'd also like to see a two-handed sword that's quicker than a Berserk-style chunk-of-iron greatsword. Obviously so I can be the surrounded samurai with just the sword... but the design is clear and robust, so I can already kind of guess what traits that would have!
GubDM
Really curious to see how y'all approach damage types, vulnerabilities and such. I really like the idea of every monster having at least one vulnerability, like Pokemon. A bit of system mastery, a bit of planning to do. Or like in the witcher where you have to craft certain oils to put on your weapons ahead of a fight.
Anthony Laffan
This. Or two short swords. Especially with how Fast works. Seeing someone sacrifice their own safety to brutally counter stab people in a "I'll kill you before you kill me" mentality sounds pretty furious.
Anthony Laffan
This seems super cool. Also if Shield is Deflect 2 and Longsword is Deflect 2, it really naturally explains through mechanics why so many tank protagonists in fantasy stories sword and board. One thing I'm curious about, will there be a negative/positive side to the light/heavy weapons to balance things out or is the expectation to balance it out with damage?
Edward Welsh
Big fan! Although I think the class fantasy of a fury with akimbo daggers is very strong imo. See Drax from guardians of the galaxy.
MShin
I think the fantasy is that when you are in close combat you are faster do defend on all sides with a light and quick weapon rather than a long and heavy one. Which is kind of true if all your opponents get into really close combat. What is missing though is the area control that something like a Greatsword, Dane Axe or even a quarterstaff allow you to exercise. And it doesn't take into account the reach advantage of some of these big weapons over something like a scimitar. Yes, a pike has more reach, but still a Dane axe has more than a scimitar. Maybe (and it sounds counter-intuitive) I would give the heavy, sweeping weapons the Fast stat. It is a different concept than that of a dagger, that inflicts a fast, quick strike, very hard to defend against, but the result is not too different. Then maybe having something like deflect 1, brutal 2 and fast 2 would be a bit OP for a Greatsword. Maybe that concept can be part of some manouvre or even a style swap. Like alternative stats depending on how you want to use a weapon in a round. Maybe you have something like "(Deflect 1, Brutal2) / (Fast 2, Brutal 1)" and you can choose if you want to use these weapons as duelling or area control.
Edward Bennigsen
Very very much like this design! Vastly more interesting than damage bags, and very intuitive. Two questions! What about weapon manoeuvres? Eg charge, set defence/counter-charge, epic martial arts with my staff. And what about thrown weapons? “Thrown” is one of the only properties on D&D weapons that makes them a little more interesting. Eg daggers, handaxes, shuriken. My guess is these would have to have different properties when thrown vs when wielded.
Ole Ingvar Stene
I really like this - my only gripe is the mechanic where you are harder to overwhelm with light weapons, but easier with heavy weapons. To me, it it seems to be the other way around, with light weapons you lack reach, and facing several opponents they will be able to control you and if you try to defend against one, another will strike at you. With heavy weapon you'll have great reach, and can fend off enemies more easily and make it harder for them to gang up. Might be that I don't understand the fantasy of this, but at a glance this makes absolutely no sense to me.
Richard Harvey
I love this. It is immediately understandable, which illustrates that it's probably going to mean it's easy to remember and actually adds a lot of flavor for characters. I'm excited to see where this leads.
Richard Miller
Can I suggest spears have Fast 1 and Deflect/Parry 1? They are both good at keeping you from getting hit and at poking holes in the people trying to hit you before they actually can.
MCDM Productions
You only get the overwhelmed buff if you're wielding only light or no weapons.
aki
Could a character duel wield a medium and light weapon and still benefit from the overwhelmed buff? If so is there any reason to not also wield a dagger or shortsword in your off hand when you're wielding a medium weapon.
MCDM Productions
That's a good question! I'm not even sure we've seen all the Traits yet. Part of figuring out stuff like Whip is trying to focus in on what fantasy folks imagine. Which isn't always possible in which case the next step is just making it *cool*. :D Then you get some folks who are like "well that's not how I imagined a whip working" but lots of other folks saying "Cool!"
Laerite
I really love this design it seems so much more interesting to play with and actually gives a reason to switch weapons about. My only concern would be burst x where x is the no. of adjacent enemies, it seems to me to be the most situational of the bunch - that is to say, the other perks seem to activate pretty consistently, whereas burst is dependant on factors less in the players control, and requires you to put yourself in more danger if you do try to control it yourself. Perhaps it deserves more than 1 damage? Or perhaps I'm underestimating how often you have multiple opponents right next to you; after all, overwhelmed encourages flanking, so even if I have a burst weapon the enemies will still want to surround me despite the risk? I guess I can't know without playing it, which y'all seem to be doing plenty of, so I'm sure if there's any issues you'll find em. Keep up the good work! Loving all these updates.
Mattamue
Love seeing some deflect on the greatsword. The tanky 2h is such a fun idea. I'd love to jump into a crowd as a fury and get overwhelmed on purpose just to get juiced on fury or whatever, and go nuts.
Collin Babcock
Weapon design for rpgs is so fascinating. Thanks for sharing your method!
Christopher Bakker
The fantasy this immediately conjures up for me is the party worrying about their Fury getting Overwhelmed, only to see them start swinging their warhammer around and just sending motherfuckers flying in every direction. I want to play this movie.
Stuart Watkinson
I really like this. I am very keen to start running when you start to open up playtesting. Also, what are the plans for The Spear, the glorious combat master weapon?
Roman Penna
I really like the difference between the Shortbow and Longbow - feels authentic as well. I think I would go flying back if I got hit by a massive arrow from 30 squares away. I like the weapons, seems fun, cinematic and intuitive.
Martin
This is awesome! How cool would it be for a heavy weapon to do burst? A greatsword, for example, could do burst 2 instead of having deflect and brutal, which would allow the fury to wade through a sea of goblins and just go to town. I really really like the concept that weapons define your style, and not the damage you deal. Great work guys, I'm so hyped to try this game out!
Avernus Of Hades
I’m wondering what traits a whip might have. I have players who always want to use whips.
Chris H.
I gotta say, I really like the idea of giving weapons more distinct features than the size of their damage die. This is a feature I'm excited to see in use.
Vitruvian Link
As an aside, I'm wracking my brain for a good convention for "fast", since it's a keyword that could potentially be put on armors and spells. Doesn't make since for spike armor to be "fast", but can't use thorny since that's Diablo. Maybe "sharp" to be the opposite of "bludgeon", but it doesn't make sense for a fire shield spell to be "sharp" 🤔🤔 I have total confidence this team will come up with all sorts of stuff I could never even consider! It's so awesome to be behind the scenes in the design process like this! Thanks everyone!
Vitruvian Link
Awesome! Two Matt posts in one day (Patreon/Kickstarter) feels like Christmas! Love the weapon design, feels a lot like gloomhaven which is a low chance, high tactics design I can get behind!
