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Newgotiation
🕑 Added 2023-11-18 03:34:42 +0000 UTCKnow what’s more satisfying than punching a devil in the face to send them back to the Seven Cities of Hell? Convincing that devil it’s in their best interest to willingly head back to Hell with your words and getting them to fork over their magic sword before they go. Not because you threatened them, but because you negotiated a really ridiculously good deal.
It is I, your James Introcaso, back to show off the latest iteration of the MCDM RPG’s negotiation rules. These are the rules we’re currently testing with our hard-working playtest coordinators. Join the MCDM Discord server if you’re interested in joining an early playtest or head on over to our Patron channel to talk with other Patrons about these posts.
We have had a couple other iterations of negotiation before this. In the very first iteration, each NPC you negotiated with had three different negotiation defenses: Ethos, Pathos, and Logos. You made arguments that appealed to these defenses followed by an appropriate Test, and the Target Number (TN) for the Test was the negotiation defense. You could end a negotiation with the NPC giving one of six different responses to the heroes’ request:
- “Yes, and…” I’m going to help you storm Lord Saxton’s keep, and I’ll lend you the Codex Mortis to help.
- “Yes.” I’m going to help you storm Lord Saxton’s keep.
- “Yes, but…” I’m going to help you storm Lord Saxton’s keep, if you can first get rid of the wyvern who keeps harassing merchants on the road outside the forest.
- “No, but…” I’m not going to help you storm Lord Saxton’s keep, but I do know of a secret tunnel built beneath the keep you could use to sneak inside.
- “No.” I’m not going to help you storm Lord Saxton’s keep! That is folly and could get me killed.
- “No, and…” I’m not going to help you storm Lord Saxton’s keep. (mutters to self) And I’m going to warn him that you are coming.
We didn’t love that because we don’t want you to have to make a Test to be an effective negotiator. A good argument that appeals to an NPC’s specific sensibilities SHOULD move the negotiation needle at least a little bit. What we did love was the six outcomes, and those have survived in every iteration of the rules so far.
Our next system did allow everyone to participate and didn’t require any Tests (though they could be made to help get the best outcome in a negotiation). The NPC had an Interest score and a Reluctance score. The job of the heroes is to increase the NPC’s Interest to maximum and decrease their Reluctance to 0 in order to get the best deal possible. They raised Interest by making Arguments called Appeals, meant to convince the NPC that working with heroes was in their own best interest and/or aligns with their personal moral code. To reduce Reluctance, heroes could make Arguments called Enticements, which are basically promises of gifts or favors in return for help. To be successful, an Appeal or Enticement must invoke one of the NPC’s Motivations, which can be Ethical or Emotional, and can be discovered by researching or interacting with the NPC before the negotiation or through Intuition-Empathy Tests during the negotiation. But beware! The NPC also has Pitfalls, rage-inducing, humiliating, or otherwise sore subjects that when brought up decrease the NPC’s Interest and increase their Reluctance. The NPC also had a Patience score, which determined how many Arguments you could make before they made a final offer to the heroes.
While this system delivered negotiation as a pillar of gameplay that everyone could participate in, a lot of testers didn’t love how complicated the interactions were and felt that the depth of the rules removed the fun from negotiations. They did like some parts of the system: appealing to Motivations, avoiding Pitfalls, and the Patience score.
The current iteration of the rules is testing better, though all the results aren’t yet in. It uses parts of the two previous iterations that allows everyone to participate, allows heroes with social Skills to shine, and allows players and GMs to stay in the moment and roleplay while still approaching the problem strategically. In fact… why don't I just share the current rules with you?
By the way, if you like what you’re reading and want to grab the hardcover version of the game, you can sign up here to find out when our BackerKit campaign for this game goes live.
Negotiation
Negotiation gives players a chance to get what they want without combat … or without further combat! You could negotiate with a king to get military support against an incursion of demons in a neighboring country, a bandit leader to convince her to stop attacking merchant caravans on the road and instead target travelers loyal to a tyrant, or to convince an archmage to allow you access to their secret library so you can research the location of a dragon-slaying axe.
When to Negotiate
In order for a negotiation to occur, an NPC must have an interest in negotiating with the heroes and a reason to be reluctant about simply jumping on board with whatever the heroes propose. Negotiations only happen when an NPC has an internal tension between an interest and a reluctance to work with the heroes. For instance, if the heroes ask a king to send his army into a neighboring kingdom to battle a demon incursion, the king is conflicted because he wants to stop the incursion, but he also doesn’t want to risk the lives of his soldiers defending a foreign nation and leave his people unprotected. If the heroes want the help of the king’s army, they need to negotiate.
To negotiate successfully, the heroes must make persuasive arguments to get the NPC to do what they want. “Do it or we kill you” is a threat—not an argument or a negotiation.
We don’t expect heroes to use the negotiation rules every time they try to convince an NPC to see things their way. Negotiations happen with important, named NPCs who can provide information, items, or services that dramatically change the course of an adventure or give the heroes a big benefit. Negotiations typically involve all the heroes and occur when they want to gain an item of great power, a retainer or companion, the services of an influential organization or nation, or a plot-twist-worthy piece of information, or if the heroes try to convince a group of potential enemies to stand down.
For instance, if a hero wants information about a cult leader from a captured cultist, a single Presence-Deceive or Might-Intimidate Test is likely all that is needed to get the desired details and there is no need to use the negotiation rules (especially if this is a threat). If a hero wants to flirt with the local alchemist to get a free healing potion, they just need to make a Presence-Charm Test. But if the heroes want to convince a lich to lend them the legendary Codex Mortis or convince a dragon to halt an attack on a wizard’s tower, then negotiation is in order.
Limits of Negotiation
Some players will naturally think that the negotiation rules should give them something akin to mind-control superpowers. They’re not used to imaging NPCs complexly. They will attempt to negotiate in situations where negotiation is either completely unreasonable or literally impossible. No matter how persuasive or well-spoken a hero is, there is no argument to be made that might convince the vile Lord Syull to give up his pursuit of evil and become a gardener.
Negotiation is not a process that changes an NPC’s character. All the heroes are doing is trying to get an NPC to see how behaving differently would be in character. You might well be able to get a hitherto loyal lieutenant to reconsider the error of their ways—that’s a classic dramatic trope—but even then you’re not changing their character. You’re convincing them their current evil ways are out of character. “Is this who you are? Is this how you want to be remembered?!”
In spite of this advice, some players may still want to use any negotiation system as a means to an end, by saying, “JUST DO WHAT WE SAY OR ELSE!!” That’s not how most people, including NPCs, work. If you open with that attitude, you’ve already lost the negotiation.
The Threat of Violence
In the real world, negotiations rarely come with a threat of immediate violence. Ambassadors don’t normally get into fist fights. But this is a heroic fantasy RPG and the heroes are all armed to the teeth and can alter reality with their minds. The threat of violence is already implied. Everyone involved knows the heroes could draw steel at any moment.
We can assume that the underlying potential for a negotiation to turn violent is already factored in. If, during the course of a negotiation, the heroes decide to bring that threat to the forefront of talks, then they’ve exited the realm of negotiation and entered the realm of brute force subject and it’s probably initiative.
You absolutely can threaten someone with violence and get them to do what you want, but this is an incredibly temporary state. You haven’t convinced them of anything other than your own power over them, and they will only comply while that threat is evident.
That NPC is not willingly doing what you asked. They’re doing it on threat of violence and will, therefore, go back to their previous behavior as soon as they think they can get away with it.
Negotiation is about persuading someone to help you willingly because you have convinced them this is a good idea. It is wise or logical or will make them look good.
Negotiation Stats
During negotiation, the heroes can strike a favorable deal if they maximize the NPC’s Interest by making Arguments that invoke the NPC’s Motivations and avoid their Pitfalls before their Patience wears out. You probably noticed that Interest, Patience, Motivations, Pitfalls, and Arguments all start with capital letters. That’s because they’re actual game terms used during negotiation.
Interest
An NPC’s Interest represents how eager they are to make a deal with the heroes. Interest is graded on a scale of 0 (no interest) to 5 (the most possible interest). When a negotiation begins, an NPC’s Interest is between 1 and 4. When an NPC’s Interest is 5, the NPC makes a final offer and the negotiation ends (see “Keep Going or Stop”). When the NPC’s Interest is 0, they end a negotiation without offering the heroes any deal.
Interest increases and decreases during the negotiation based on the Arguments the heroes make.
Patience
An NPC’s Patience represents how much time and effort the NPC is willing to devote to a negotiation. Patience is graded on a scale of 0 to 5. An NPC starts a negotiation with their Patience higher than 0. If an NPC’s Patience reaches 0, the NPC makes a final offer and then negotiation ends (see “Keep Going or Stop”).
Patience can decrease each time the heroes make an Argument during a negotiation.
Motivations
Every NPC has Motivations that the heroes can appeal to with an Argument. Every NPC has at least two Motivations, though some have more. Arguments that appeal to an NPC’s Motivations can cause their Interest to increase without the need to make a Test. Each Motivation can only be successfully appealed to once during a negotiation. To successfully appeal to a Motivation, the heroes must use the Motivation in an Argument without mentioning a Pitfall or getting caught in a lie.
Sample Motivations
Some motivations are the principles determined by the NPC’s personal worldview. For instance, a knight sworn to protect the royalty may have the Motivation: “Protect the monarch and their family at any cost.” Likewise, a bandit captain may have this Motivation: “You deserve whatever you are strong enough to take.”
Other motivations are the instincts and intuitions that drive these NPC’s behavior. For instance, an NPC might have the Motivation: “I want history to remember me.” Another might have this Motivation: “I love the animals of the wode and would do anything to keep them safe and happy.”
Pitfalls
Pitfalls are topics that spark ire, regret, shame, jealousy, fear or another negative response in an NPC. Mentioning a Pitfall in a negotiation causes an NPC’s Interest to wane. Every NPC has at least two Pitfalls. An NPC’s Pitfalls could include an infamous defeat they suffered at the hands of a rival, their tumultuous relationship with an estranged family member, or an irrational hatred of bunnies.
Opening a Negotiation
A negotiation begins when the heroes ask something of an NPC, and the Director deems the circumstances require a negotiation. Remember, negotiations should only come into play when the heroes require assistance that could change the course of an adventure and when the NPC is conflicted about working with them.
Stop Combat, Start Negotiation
If the players are battling an NPC and want to halt combat to negotiate, the Director can ask that one of the heroes make a Presence-Charm, Presence-Intimidate, or other applicable Test as a Maneuver to stop combat and begin a negotiation. The TN of this Test is generally 9 if the NPC is clearly losing the battle, 12 if the battle’s outcome is unclear, or 15 if the NPC is clearly winning the battle.
Starting Stats
An NPC’s starting negotiation stats depend on their attitude toward the heroes as shown on the Negotiation Starting Attitudes table. The Director can adjust this table as they see fit. For instance, a naturally impatient NPC might have lower Patience, and a hostile NPC who has a greater than usual stake in the negotiation topic may have a higher than normal Interest.
Negotiation Starting Attitudes
Divining Motivations and Pitfalls
If a hero wishes to figure out an NPC’s Motivations and Pitfalls, they can make an Intuition-Empathy Test while interacting with the NPC during a negotiation. The TN for the Test is the same as the NPC’s Argument TN on the Negotiation Starting Attitudes table. On a success, the hero learns one of the NPC’s Motivations that has yet to be appealed to or one of the NPC’s undiscovered Pitfalls (chosen by the hero). After making the Test, the heroes can’t make another to determine the NPC’s Motivations or Pitfalls until they make an Argument to the NPC or the Negotiation ends.
Outside of Negotiation
While the heroes can discover an NPC’s Motivations or Pitfalls through Tests made during negotiation, they can employ other methods of investigating the NPC’s Motivations or Pitfalls before negotiation. Research or a little reconnaissance (like reading the NPC’s diary or talking to their closest friends), can reveal quite a bit about a person!
Making Arguments
As part of their initial request to the NPC, a hero should make an argument to the NPC as to why the NPC should give the heroes what they want. The hero might offer to do something in exchange, like clear bandits from a forest, hand over a piece of treasure, or slay a dragon for the NPC as part of an Argument. Instead of offering something, the hero could attempt to convince the NPC it is in their best interest or a moral imperative to help. For example, the hero could appeal to a knight’s sense of duty, the potential wealth a mercenary could make, or the final wish of a queen’s dearly departed grandmother as part of an Argument.
One hero makes the Argument to the NPC, but the players can discuss the Argument out of character before making it. Should they offer something to the NPC to sweeten the deal, or should they argue that the NPC is making a decision in their own best interest? What argument do they think would best sway the NPC? It’s up to the group of players to decide how much out of character discussion they want to have before making an argument. Discuss this before you actually get into a negotiation, so you know where everyone’s comfort level is.
Pitfall Mentioned
If the argument mentions one of the NPC’s Pitfalls, their Interest and Patience decreases by 1. The NPC might also warn the heroes not to bring the subject up again.
Appeal to Motivation
If the argument doesn’t include a Pitfall and appeals to one the NPC’s Motivations that hasn’t already been appealed to, then the NPC’s Interest increases by 1 and their Patience remains the same.
If the heroes attempt to appeal to a motivation that’s already been appealed to, the NPC’s Interest remains the same and their Patience decreases by 1.
No Pitfall or Motivation Mentioned
If the argument doesn’t include one of the NPC’s Pitfalls or Motivations, the hero who makes the argument must make a Test to appeal to the NPC. Depending on the argument, it could be a Reason, Intuition, or Presence Test that uses any applicable skill, likely Charm, Deceive, Empathy, Intimidate, or a Knowledge skill. At the Director’s discretion, other Characteristics and Skills can be used as part of the test. The TN for the Test is determined by the NPC’s starting attitude as shown on the Negotiation Starting Attitudes table. On a success, the NPC’s Interest increases by 1. On a failure, the target’s Interest decreases by 1. At the Director’s discretion, the NPC’s Interest could decrease further if the NPC catches a hero who used the Deceive skill in a lie.
Succeed or fail, this method reduces the NPC’s Patience by 1 because it doesn’t appeal directly to one of their Motivations.
NPC Response and Offer
After a hero makes an Argument, the NPC responds:
- They respond positively if the heroes increase their Interest. “That’s an excellent point.” “You’ve given me much to consider.” “Fair enough.” “Makes sense to me.”
- They respond negatively if the heroes decrease their Interest. “I don’t buy that.” “Poppycock!” “I hear you, but I disagree.” “That’s not going to sway me.”
- They respond with impatience if the heroes fail to increase or decrease their Interest. “I’ve heard that before.” “Are you going to offer me anything real?” “This debate is tiresome.” “BORING!”
The initial response should come with an offer (or refusal to make an offer) based on the NPC’s current Interest. If the Argument reduced the NPC’s Patience to 0, then the NPC lets the heroes know that this is their final offer.
Interest 5 (“Yes, and…”)
If the NPC’s Interest is 5, the NPC offers everything the heroes asked for and sweetens the deal. This result is the best possible outcome for the heroes. If the heroes offered to perform any services or make payments as part of the deal, the NPC might offer to waive those, allowing the heroes to get whatever they want from the NPC for free. Alternatively, the NPC might hold the heroes to any offers they made and instead offer an extra service or item on top of what the heroes asked for. For instance, if the heroes asked the boss of a thieves’ guild for the organization’s help in standing against Lord Saxton, the guildmaster may pledge to send a unit of elite assassins to aid in the battle against Saxton and then offer the heroes a quiver filled with explosive arrows to also aid in the fight. The NPC should let the heroes know that this is the best offer they can make.
Interest 4 (“Yes.”)
If the NPC’s Interest is 4, the NPC offers the heroes everything they asked for without sweetening the deal. The NPC also accepts anything the heroes have offered as part of the deal with this result. For instance, if the heroes offer to help spring a guild thief from prison in exchange for a unit of the organization's elite assassins to stand against Lord Saxton, the guildmaster agrees to those terms without attempting to adjust anything. This likely ends the negotiation, but it’s possible the heroes could push for a little more, provided the NPC has the Patience for another Argument.
Interest 3 (“Yes, but…”)
If the NPC’s Interest is 3, they offer the heroes what they want in exchange for everything the heroes offered … plus a little extra, such as a favor or payment from the heroes. For instance, if the heroes offered to free a thieves’ guild member from prison in exchange for a unit of the organization's elite assassins to stand against Lord Saxton, the guildmaster might ask them to throw in a payment, a magic item, or to free an additional prisoner.
Interest 2 (“No, but…”)
If the NPC’s Interest is 2, the NPC can’t give the heroes what they want. However, they are willing to offer some other, less impactful good or service in exchange for whatever the heroes have promised. For example, the guildmaster might not be willing to spare any troops to fight Lord Saxton but might instead offer the latest spy reports on Lord Saxton’s movements for the jailbreak.
Interest 1 (“No.”)
If the NPC’s Interest is 1, they outright reject the heroes’ idea without a counteroffer. If the NPC still has Patience, they might push the heroes for a better deal, saying something like, “Why should we risk our necks to help Lord Saxton? What’s really in it for the thieves’ guild, other than a short, brutal end when you inevitably fail?”
Interest 0 (“No, and…”)
If the NPC’s Interest is 0, they offer nothing, refuse to negotiate further, and seek to harm the heroes. The NPC might attack immediately, or they could take a different approach and wait for the heroes to leave their presence before taking action. The NPC might spread malicious rumors about the heroes, send assassins after them, or otherwise make the heroes’ lives difficult. If the heroes don’t want to be at odds with the NPC, they’ll need to offer an expensive gift or undertake a quest just to make amends. It is impossible to continue a negotiation when an NPC’s Interest drops to 0.
Keeping Going or Stop
If the NPC still has Patience after making an offer and their Interest is between 1 and 4, the heroes can make another Argument to attempt to improve the deal, or they can accept the offer and end the negotiation.
If the NPC’s Patience is 0 or their Interest is 5, then the offer the NPC makes is their final offer to the NPCs. The heroes can accept the offer or not, but either way, the negotiation ends.
If the NPC’s Interest is 0, the NPC ends the negotiation without accepting a deal.
The heroes can walk away from a negotiation without accepting a deal at any time.
That’s It For Now!
Thanks for checking it out! And don’t forget, the BackerKit campaign for this game is going live on December 7th. Sign up here to get an email when it goes live.
Ex animo,
James Introcaso
MCDM Lead Game Designer
Comments
Michael
I appreciate how this system conspicuously adds value to information. I think a system like this will be enjoyed by players who appreciate lorefinding/divination/espionage/recon fantasies. Also, since information has such a clear value in this system, I think more people will be drawn to those fantasies compared to other RPGs.
Martin
I'm going to be honest. None of this feels heroic, cinematic or tactical to me, and I think it's overdesigned. I do like the general idea of a) making big negotiations more than a simple check and b) having rules for more nuanced outcomes, but I agree with Sean above that this feels like it belongs in a different game. I think it's also a bit weird that any negotiation can end with the full spectrum between "No, and" and "Yes, and". I would simplify it quite a bit, e.g. like this: There is only 1 stat: Patience. Every negotiation starts with X patience (needs to be tweaked by looking at the math). There's a TN attached to the negotiation based on how much the NPC likes the party. The players roleplay the negotiation. If the GM thinks the argument was great (exactly fits the NPCs motivation, etc.), they get an automatic success. If the argument was bad, the players roll and if they fail the TN, patience goes down by however much they fail. If the argument was so so, or contained both good and bad points, then it's a toss up and a good roll will yield a success while a bad roll reduces patience. So patience only ever goes down and you count successes. The negotiation is over once the party is satisfied or patience is 0. The GM then maps the number of successes onto the spectrum of "No, and" and "Yes, and" at their discretion. You probably need to tweak the math a bit, but I think this would be a bit simpler. I'm not sure if I'd ever use such a system, but I _definitely_ wouldn't use the one outlined here. There are lot of things wrong with 5E and other fantasy RPGs, but not once did I think "Man I wish there was more process and bookkeeping involved in social encounters"
Tylah Hexen
I'm currently entering an arc in my 5e campaign where the players will be seeking allies and aid in a revolutionary attempt to overthrow the evil empire, and I will absolutely be utilizing this system in negotiations. Love it.
