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3.42. Learning From the Tournament

🕑 Added 2023-03-18 20:14:06 +0000 UTC

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3seed

It's funny. I haven't thought at all about quantifying the components of an exchange. There's so much involved in the process, I don't know if I could even do it. But you're right about another spirit taking that exchange. It'd be an easy one to accept.

D J Meigs

Yep definitely like the new version better, and it has a better place in the story than my suggestion of changing the deal made with the siblings. Incidentally I’ve refined the reason why the exchange didn’t work in this chapter (since the chapter isn’t cannon it probably doesn’t matter anymore, but I like sharing my thoughts and I’ve missed doing it for Eight). It’s not just because intent matters in these exchanges and Eight never intended to truly accept the deal. But even if he’d accepted in earnest he would have been making a sacrifice of his own in the doing instead of gaining something. Basically if we assign arbitrary values between 0 and 100 to the things exchanged and a spirit bargain is meant to have those numbers match as closely as possible or the spirit will be paying the difference in power, then the kid would be paying with the sacrifice of his freedom at a value of 100 and in accepting Eight would be paying with the sacrifice of his morality at a value of a 100 assuming his views on slavery match mine which they seem to (there are other things that seem like they could weigh in like Eight’s acknowledgement of the value of the sacrifice even if he doesn’t value a slave as such but I’ll keep it straightforward with the values each individual thinks they are bringing to the table). In eights world view gaining a slave isn’t a gain it’s a sacrifice, a violation of his core beliefs that would compromise everything he stands for. It can’t be called an equivalent exchange if both sides are sacrificing different things but in equal parts and then one side still gets the spell… twice. Interestingly if the exchange had been presented as Ikfael requiring both the moral sacrifice and the sacrifice of freedom as the cost for two spells, I think the exchange itself would have worked. Intent would still matter and I still think Eight would have had to genuinely agree to it, even if Ikfael told him immediately after completing the bargain that he could free the kid, he would have payed the price by compromising his morals. Two spells for the price of freedom and morality works whereas two spells and a morality for the price of freedom doesn’t. I would hate it, and it doesn’t fit with Ikfael’s character, but I could see a different spirit accepting those terms and it would work with my understanding of bargains and how they are weighed. Though maybe I’m completely misreading what matters in bargains. I do think the new version of the chapter brings a lot more value to the story and is a much better fit. There was already another example of Ikfael making a bargain, and while it was nice to have a second one, it was not necessary. The face to face with the healer’s lodge was. Tbh since it wasn’t in this book I’d expected it in the next one. So I’m glad it was addressed. And thank you for all the work you put into this!

D J Meigs

he struck me as a zealot during his fight with Aslishtei. There’s something beyond the normal tying him to the healers for sure.

Amber Gregory

I really enjoyed this chapter. We had examples of 2 opposing human truths: 1, people will always surprise you with their capacity to ruin and twist things, even things that could benefit everyone, through greed. 2, they can surprise you by doing the opposite, sacrificing personal gain for a greater good. Could we be surprised by Ichkadeshtu? His actions speak of someone who isn't just doing this for money. Why take pain unnecessarily if that is your only motivation? Why is someone so talented so tied to the healers? Could the tournament ultimately be his way out of their clutches? The healers can't be all powerful. They must be taking risks to fight this battle as well.

D J Meigs

That got away from me as I tried to explain my thoughts 😅

D J Meigs

There’s a lot to unpack. Question: could the winner of the boon choose to give it to someone else? Say if Wusta won could he choose for the boon to go to the kid Eight fought? Something about the healing water exchange didn’t work for me. From what I understand the value of an exchange includes personal value. So offering something close to one’s heart or essential to one’s survival increases the value of the exchange. So the kid had to wholeheartedly be ready to become a slave. That make sense. But Ikfael knew full well that Ollie would never go for it, and while she’s been known to cheat the system, this one seems a bit too obvious. Plus Ollie’s agreement in this was completely disingenuous. Obviously I don’t want Eight to accept a slave, but in terms of the exchange it doesn’t seem valid, because ultimately Ikfael gets nothing out of it, and knew they wouldn’t. Am I explaining my qualms clearly? Maybe Eight could tell him that one day he’ll call upon the boy to do something as yet unknown and he expects him to do it no questions asked, instead of enslaving him. Then Eight can either never call in the favor, or use it at a time when an extra pair of hands is seriously needed. The point being that there would still be weight in the exchange that I’m not feeling right now. Also if word gets out that anyone can get the spell by offering to be a slave but then not be held to it that could be bad. As generous as Ikfael is she’s been careful not to be taken advantage of by anyone (she just lets Eight get away with stuff, but only because he’ll keep doing things for her)


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