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Hell on Earth - Appendix 6: THE EAST (feat. Derek Davison)

🕑 Added 2023-04-19 11:00:03 +0000 UTC

Comments

Poseyma2

I swear to god somebody mention Alexander the Great as the first celebrity

Khemith

Islamic culture was always far more socially aware than Europe. Then they found oil.....

Danpat

Also because all land was nominally owned by the sultan, property accumulation was much much slower, with neither a feudal class to but up land nor a protobourgeoisie to expand beyond guild workshops

Danpat

Another structural difference between Ottomans and the west worth considering is that Ottoman-Islamic legal codes functionally prevented the accumulation of capital at the same pace and scale as in Europe! Only merchants and financiers were allowed to make profits above the 10-20% that was limited to all other sectors. Also the Timar system of the Sipahis was (according to Halil Inalcik) somewhat different to the feudal system in that, because all land was legally owned by the Sultan, all farmland was divided into family farms operated by peasants largely independent of the Sipahis (so long as they didn’t not underproduce). Inalcik compares this system to Chayanov’s theory on the Russian peasant economy. Would really recommend checking out Inalcik’s ‘capital formation in the Ottoman Empire’ as well as his general economic history of the empire. The sections on the land regime is super interesing

boki

Damn I’m on a roll. The Kosovo battle that Derik mentioned has been used as a key historical trauma, a shared experience among the Serbian clans to generate a modern Serbian identity in the late 18th and early 19th century. This is why the modern Serbian state has a hard time giving up Kosovo. One thing to note is that the whole generation of Serbian nobles has been wiped out at that battle. It was a complete failure yet it’s used as one of the key ingredients to create a modern Serbian nation state.

boki

Great comment Nikolay about Bosnian urban vs rural split between. Urban Turkish and covert population benefited from the empire while rural mountainous Catholics and orthodox retained their culture. I wish Derek just touched a bit on the importance of this time to for setting up the stage for the Bosnian war.

boki

Great episode. I wish Derick had a little more about the Slavs. Murat was killed by Milos Obilić. He was about to surrender to Murat and kiss his boot, and then stabbed him with a dagger. The Turkish invasion prompted Serbian exodus to AustroHungarian Croatian region. They were absorbed into local military units and given land concessions to establish a military border or Vojana Kraina. Most of those families stayed there until 1994 Storm expulsion.

Austin Ross

Great penultimate episode Fellas! I wish y’all had more time to do an episode on focusing on the African Kingdoms impact on the 30 years war and how the Great Design influenced Dutch War strategy. Home team history did a great video about it here: https://youtu.be/4quE_p3mR38

Luminita Stanila

shame they didn't get William Dalrymple or Anita Anand on, their just finished podcast series on the Ottoman Empire was absolutely fantastic.

Don Tickles

Thanks Chris Wade!

Chris Wade

Twitch.tv/chapotraphouse @4p est

Don Tickles

Thank you Anthony (wat a nice young man!) Anybody know where? Twitch?

Anthony Perry

They said at the end of the last ep, I think it's Friday at 4pm EST I hope your mom gets her question answered

Scot Forsythe

So cool i get to go Mamluk to Ottoman with double D ❤️🔥

Don Tickles

My mom has a question for the podcast where when is the live stream wrap up?

Ty Drown

Excellent episode, Derek is always great. The Empire podcast has a good episode on the Ottomans and the Tudors where they read some of the the correspondence with Elizabeth I of England and the Ottomans and Moroccans that Derek references; the Moroccan king even proposed colonizing Virginia for her.

C. Ries

One of the greatest empires to ever ball. It’s insane that they lasted until 1917

David Andrews

You guys really stuck your foot in this series. I'm sorry it's coming to an end.

Ivan Novikov

Can you guys please do an episode with Zizek where you discuss pere josef

Crash Test Orphan

This is great timing what with the new EU4 expansion being Ottoman-focused coming out today.

Christian

I was begging for this episode. Finally we can find out why those Turks were so lustful for Vienna

JD Nonce

This series just keeps on giving

Zack Huber

Is there a place to get the Hell on Earth theme music? I love it!

woof dog

Izmit is close but it's a different place

woof dog

It's Iznik not Izmit. Fun episode

Nico

We love the appendices, don't we folks?

buttface

this show got more appendices than original episodes lol

Julie Baxter

Suliman, you Magnificent Bastard! I read your book!

Demented Avenger

This needs to be called the Grand Vizier's Garden Party

Sam

wow that is very interesting, thank you for writing this1

Nico

On the question of why the Bosnian converted to Islam, I agree with Derek that they occupied a buffer zone where neither the Catholic nor Orthodox church could establish religious hegemony. But (as Derek alluded to) there was mass conversion elsewhere in the Balkans, particularly in Albania. Even outside Albania and Bosnia, there were large Muslim minorities across the region, but they mostly spoke Turkish, even if they descended from indigenous converts. They were also largely an urban population of bureacrats, craftsmen and other middle-class professions who depended on the Ottoman state for their livelihoods. Most towns above a certain size were majority Muslim and, by modern standards, "ethnically" Turkish. The revolts that formed the new Christian principalities out of the 19th century Ottoman Balkans mostly drove out these urban Turks, whether through voluntary migration, forcible expulsion or through literal genocide. What remained were mostly rural Muslim peasants. The Turkish-speakers among them would adopt a Turkish identity and be largely excluded from the new nation states, leading to gradual (and continuing) outmigration to modern-day Turkey, further cementing the Christian majorities in most of these countries. Those who retained their indigenous language were/are largely viewed as a religious but not an ethnic minority. What sets Bosnia apart is that most of the converts retained their Slavic language and weren't subjected to the same pressure to emigrate from a Christian majority. The language aspect may have been because of their relative remoteness from the Ottoman core and the fact that Bosnia, a very mountainous country, wasn't as amenable to settlement by Turkish speakers from that core. But the Muslim community in Bosnia was mostly town-based, like elsewhere in the Balkans, and mostly occupied the more hospitable valleys of central Bosnia, while the rural highlands were populated mainly by Catholic and Orthodox Christians. The three-way religious split meant there was never a majority community to form a dominant national movement, although Serb separatists (e.g. The Black Hand) were active there. The Habsburgs took over Bosnia in 1878 and seem to have largely maintained the existing social structure and the religious-demographic balance. It wasn't until after WWII that any kind of Muslim Bosniak national identity started to form, as I understand, because ethnic affiliation ended up breaking down along confessional lines. What strikes me as more exceptional is the mass conversion of Albanians. Granted, Albania also lies across a Catholic-Orthodox faultline, and to this day the northwest and southern fringes of the country are majority Catholic and Orthodox, respectively. You could also make the same argument for language retention in Albania; the country is mountainous and isolated. But why such a large majority converted to Islam... My best guess is Derek's "mountain warrior" argument, which I think applies better in this case. Albanian auxiliaries really were widely used by the Ottoman state up until the early 20th century. Later, a lot of Albanians climbed the ranks of the Ottoman system and became viziers or governors, like Muhammad Ali Pasha (Egypt) or Ali Pasha (Epirus). Sorry for the long-winded lecture, I'm originally from the region and have speculated a lot on these questions. I was also just possessed by the demonic energy of the beverage GURU.

butt ass

derek!! hell yeah!!

Dee Haytch

Sometimes their lusting after Vienna got so intense it would disregulate normal breathing patterns in a condition known at the time as Otto-errotic asphyxiation

SlowTrickle

Thanks for the extra shows guys. The boot of capital has been coming down hard lately and more chapo for the same price is like getting something for free these days