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The GMTK episode I threw away (Insider, May 2018)

🕑 Added 2018-05-26 17:00:01 +0000 UTC
The GMTK episode I threw away (Insider, May 2018)

Comments

So is this where the "Playing past your mistakes" episode was born from?

Doctor Professor

I definitely think there's stuff here worth exploring. If you're looking for more perspectives/angles, I wrote about something similar that I dubbed "the competence zone" in 2010 at <a href="https://pixelpoppers.com/2010/06/real-games-have-curves-welcome-to-the-competence-zone/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://pixelpoppers.com/2010/06/real-games-have-curves-welcome-to-the-competence-zone/</a> and I've seen other writers refer to how "strict" a game is - for example, see <a href="https://shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=36902" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=36902</a> - but the focus on using something like this to change goals/priorities is new and interesting to me.

Ryan Spargo

As someone who has desired/still desires to make a unique video essay channel one day, I'm thrilled to read and dissect a script of yours that didn't leave the cutting room floor. Good perspective from a pro on what works and what can be cut, I say.

Tom T

In regard to stealth games, I’m one of the players who often just resets if I get spotted instead of hiding. Partly this is because most stealth games don’t have fun/interesting mechanics for the “spotted” phase, but I think another huge reason I reset is because of immersion/the narrative. Most stealth games present the situation as you infiltrating an area without anyone learning of your presence. That works if the player is never spotted, but if I do get spotted I have a very hard time believing that the guards would forget about my existence after a minute or two, and that the guards would neglect to inform their boss that I’m here. It honestly just feels better to me to reload rather than deal with that dissonance. Maybe one way around this issue would be to have the villains know from the start that the player exists and is infiltrating the area, but they don’t know *where* the player is coming from. So the guards aren’t on a generic patrol for any intruders, they’re specifically looking for the player. Guards could exit their alert state not by forgetting there’s an intruder, but by assuming that the intruder has escaped the immediate area, so now they have to look somewhere else. You could set this up from a narrative perspective either by framing the sequence as an escape, rather than an infiltration, or by having the villain learn about your planned infiltration in the plot. Gameplay wise, developers really need to encourage taking advantage of guards seeing you. For example, there could be a mechanic where you can set traps and lead the guards to them.

Iestyn bleasdale-shepherd

Oh and also Celeste, surprisingly... despite instant death it has two elements that create a wonderfully satisfying failure spectrum. The first is the very closely spaced checkpoints - one per screen means repetition is easy to accept so they can demand much greater mastery of the player. The second is the carefully honed "motion envelope" they design into each stage; at any given moment along the correct path to the goal, you can be slightly too early/late/high/low... but as long as you remain within the envelope you can always correct back to the ideal position and make it to the goal. Cleverly, they usually make the envelope narrower at the start of the stage - the part you will repeat the most often.

Mikhail Aristov

The idea of a failure spectrum may be new to video games, but e.g. in tabletop RPGs (particularly the story-first ones from The Forge school, like Apocalypse World and its many hacks), this idea has long been established and explored. The thinking goes that instead of rolling dice to see if succeed at a skill check/attack or fail, you roll to see whether you succeed perfectly (then the narrative proceeds as the player intended), whether you succeed with complications (the "yes, but.." mentality: you accomplish your primary goal, but there is a complication imposed onto you by the system/game master which you have to deal with right away or along the line), or something goes horribly wrong and steers the story in a completely new direction (the "failing forward" mentality: if you fail a check, the situation changes irrevocably, and you now have to contend with a new, bigger problem in addition to your old troubles). All of this is actually hard-coded into the Apocalypse World mechanics and that game came out in 2010.

Mark M

Interesting, I've been thinking about similar things recently. Difficulty is definitely influenced by this concept. The wider the failure spectrum, the more death has to hurt in order to increase difficulty. FTL and Super Meat Boy are polar opposites in this regard, but both difficult. I also noticed this after playing Uncharted 4 and The Last of Us back to back. Similar games, but the focus on resource and health management, more punishing enemies, constrained environments, and a less capable character gives the latter a narrower failure spectrum. This also plays into the intended experience, themes and story of both games. Also funny that you mention the 'quick save quick load' thing. I do that in the Dishonored games. I love those games, and feel that I still get a wider experience purely from the size of environment, and as you say, enemies do not spot you straight away. Dishonored 2 also improves options for stealthy players. I always play Ghost, though, as I find the game less enjoyable otherwise. Too messy. Whereas a game like Far Cry I actually embrace the mess, Dishonored feels less fun to me in that guise. It just feels better and perhaps more challenging to try and ghost my way through.

I know some people like that. And I say that if they want to play like that, then let them be, they choose that play-style because it makes the game exactly as they enjoy it more.

Mathew Dyason

You definitely have a decent script here! I don't think it would be "too obvious" for the large portion of your audience that are aspiring game developers. While coming back to the same games and situations does feel a little predictable, you could use it as an introduction to the idea and then go deeper with your own examples (which you already do a bit already!) If you need to add a bit of length, I'd like to know how games could benefit from a narrow failure spectrum, if at all. You speak as if a wide state is inherently better, but I'd be curious to know if some games have successfully used a narrow failure state in an interesting way. I hope you're able to salvage the video because it's an interesting topic that I know you can do justice!

Blaine Talbut

"Some players will simply decide that they will only accept perfect play and manually reset the game state the second they make a mistake. And, sure, that’s a valid way to play I guess - but it squashes the failure spectrum down to a razor thin line and removes all the juicy middle ground, where the emotional stories and shifting goals are found." This makes me think of Fire Emblem, whose fans ostensibly love its permadeath mechanic, but in practice never play with it and just reset when they lose someone. I feel like a lot is lost there.

Iestyn bleasdale-shepherd

In case you revisit this, L4D would make a great case study. "I would talk about how interesting stories crop up in the middle ground" ... "screw-ups can move you towards the failure end and recoveries can (sometimes) move you back up towards success" ... L4D really does a great job of letting players claw their way back from near defeat, creating memorable shared stories in the process.


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