Post "UNCUT - Reunion (TNG S4E7) | Star Trek Journey 188" by "Target Audience" from patreon

SnabbKassa

well that was in hot blood, with cause

Paul Hess

I'll go with whatever makes the story better, and harkening back to The Emissary is a great move.

ET

this episode is a classic. i remember seeing it for the first time right before dinner in year 1990-something.

Smear Campaign

Slowly catching up after a holiday. Not quite true that we’ve never seen a main cast member kill in cold blood. Remmick said ‘we seek peaceful coexistence’ and Picard and Riker didn’t say a word then blew his head off in season 1. There was no indication he was a threat - they could have negotiated and tried to remove the parasite etc.

BN13

I think you're missing part of Worf's story arc. Worf never realized that the Klingon Empire has corruption. He still glorifies Klingons and everything that they are supposed to stand for. By accepting discommendation, he's agreeing with the council that covering up Duras is the right thing to do, to the point where he is willing to sacrifice himself and his own honor in order to protect their corruption. But even though this is painted as being "right" by Klingon standards, it's actually wrong by both Klingon standards and human standards. By human standards, the corruption should be exposed, and by Klingon standards, Duras deserves not only discommendation, but to die for forcing another to accept discommendation on his behalf, AND enjoying it. So is covering him up this really the honorable thing to do? Are they really "saving the empire" by doing this, or are they ultimately just protecting corrupt people for political reasons? Duras almost became the leader of the Kingon Empire, when they KNOW that Duras's father betrayed their people to the Romulans, and Duras will likely do the same thing. Do you really want that guy leading you? I think that is more dangerous than possibly starting a civil war, but still, no one in the council wants to expose Duras because it will come back on THEM. So part of Worf's arc centers on how far he is willing to let the Klingon Empire go. How much is he willing to sacrifice, tolerate, and cover up, all because he still believes it's for a noble cause? This episode raises the stakes in that regard. Worf was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice and accept discommendation when he thought he would be the only one to suffer. It’s not that discommendation didn’t bother him, or that he was above it and unaffected; rather, he was willing to endure it and face the hardship like a true warrior allfor "the glory of the empire." This is why he doesn’t expect any human to understand the depth of his dishonor, or why it is necessary for him to go through it. This episode challenges his conclusions; is he willing to make others suffer as well? Is he willing to force his son into discommendation, or K'Ehleyr? K'Ehleyr is willing because she doesn’t care what the Klingons think of her, but Alexander would be a condemned outcast for life—all to protect Duras, who should not only be exposed by human standards, but killed by Klingon standards. Alexander further illustrates that forcing discommendation on the innocent is wrong, as is punishing the son for the Sins of the Father. Not taking the oath with K'Ehleyr or Accepting Alexander as his had nothing to do with "embarrassment." Worf's "embarrassed" by his human side and his human parents. This was about protection. He wanted them protected from the consequences of his actions just like he protected his brother Kurn. Discommendation is no joke. It just has no meaning aboard the Enterprise which was why Worf was chosen as the scapegoat. So what ultimately would make Worf break and do what is really "right" here, killing Duras? The episode takes it as far as it can go for him. Is he willing to protect Duras and the council's corruption even if it means letting Duras kill K'Ehleyr? The answer is obviously no. That was probably the only thing that would get him to kill Duras, and he does just that. But he's not ready to expose the council yet. What will it take before he stops covering up for them? What will it take before he acknowledges that this discommendation he accepted isn't noble at all? What will it take before he realizes that Klingons aren't always right? This is also why I think it was perfectly acceptable that the dialogue in Family was between Guinan and Worf's parents, not Worf and his parents. Worf is not at that point in his character development yet where he can say the things to his parents that Guinan can. He's still the proud stand-offish Klingon to them. He still values Klingon culture over human culture. He's still embarrassed by his human side, and glorifies the Klingon side. He loves his parents, but he's too proud to fully admit that to them yet, at least directly. I like that the "right" thing to do changes depending on whether or not you are viewing Worf's situation though a human lens, the ideal Klingon lens, or the actual Klingon lens. Was killing Duras "right?" was accepting discommendation "right?" depends on what lens you view it though. So far in Klingon matters, Worf has always chosen to view things in either a corrupt or an ideal Klingon way. Do you think will he ever get to the point where he chooses a human way instead? K'ehleyr embraced her human side and understood that sometimes Klingons are just dumb and maybe you shouldn't take all of their beliefs and rituals so seriously. Will Worf ever get to this point? How will Worf ultimately balance these views?

Josh (Target Audience)

I was referring to Batman Begins. They see the Opera “Die Fledermaus”. He gets scared of the performers dressed like bats and asks to leave. Then they get killed.

Scarpad’s Domain

you nailed it brother

paultardspambot .

Bruce Wayne didn't drag his parents out of a play. They watched the movie Mask of Zorro and finished it. Bruce's Guilt stems from him dancing around like an idiot and insisting on something trivial that was a non proximate cause of his parents exact position and time to get chilled. Similar principle, just incorrect details. I'll add more specifics later when I look them up to respond. There of course have been many different continuities where some minor details differ, and whether he was just dancing like a fool as he says or whether he asked for something trivial or whether he wasn't in anyway responsible so its a lot to research. But one element that is always consistent, they watch the film "The Mask of Zorro" and finish it and them coming out of theatre is just the patrons leaving the show like they normally wood, the only relevance of "The Mask of Zorro" is the vigilante connection and in some "cosmic DC" there's deeper meaning but its always them finishing the movie before leaving and heading to Park Row (later renamed Crime Alley in honor of the killings and reflecting its current rundown state) where they are murdered by Joe Chill (Or Jack Napier later Joker in the Burton Verse being the only exception I can think of)

Scott Reeves

Boom! You just blew up my comment.

Phillip Grischa

Data killing Fajo would not have been murder. Using deadly force to escape your kidnapper is legal.

Scott Reeves

So with this episode, the top three officers below Picard are officially murderers. Riker killed the clan Trilesta survivor, Data fired his weapon to kill Fajo, whose death was only prevented because he was beamed up just as he fired. And now Worf kills Duras. So two actual murders, and one attempted murder by three of Starfleet's top officers.

Narnman

why not? did you also secretly work with the romulans

Timothy Nikiforovs

K'EHLEYR: Why didn't we do this six years ago? WORF: We were not ready. The Emissary makes it pretty clear that was their first time

Philbot

I think I know where you’re going.

Collin Freeman

Thank you, Chris. I was going to say something but you did nice job.

shanetown

Alexander is a textbook example of 'Soap Opera Aging'. He's as old as he needs to be to move the story along.

Ron Hubbard Jr

When Worf identifies himself as the "son of Mogh" that is what serves as a "last name" for Klingons. Identifying your house, such as "House of Duras" also serves the same purpose.

Ron Hubbard Jr

You guys finally meet Gowron, the greatest FB meme warrior of all time...

Dantharr

I love watching it about 5 seconds ahead of you guys so I can look to see your reactions! This episode was a hoot.

Keith S

I watched this twice. Second time I looked at your reactions more closely. Josh, it looked like your eyes were going to fly out of your head at one point. When you saw Kaylahr's death.

Derek Orr

catch on? ugh its not a good thing, we need to go back to more episodic tv

Chris S.

Is that mentioned anywhere? Im not saying you’re wrong. I have just never heard that in any of the shows or references of actual canon. I know they have no tear ducts. Lol. That is established as a thing. But never heard that one.

Jovet

Just a legal point: Worf can't be accused of murder if the authority holding jurisdiction where the "murder" took place does not recognize the presumed act as murder.

Sam Langanke

Klingons just grow faster.

s0rd3z

Pretty much the reaction I have now. Gave it an A for the same reason as Alex. When this first aired I was mad lol. It's such a good episode. I always thought Worf having a family in that way on board the ship would of been really cool.

Mark Wood

Sorry but nope bullshit on respect for alien cultures tradition. Spock would have been taken to court, with Pon Farr giving him legal reason to not have mental capacity he would be found not guilty. But he would have been tried. For example Picard being literally not in control over a single one of his actions isn't held to for his crimes (its not because they respect Borg Culture, that no charges are brought fourth) its that he literally had no control at all. Worf is in control over his actions, now how we know this. He removes his communicator. The sole means they have to track and transport him away at their convenience. That shows rational reasoned thought. Now if he had just stormed off after grabbing a weapon he could use the heat of passion, which doesn't absolve you from the guilt (at least its not intended to, its been done though over the years), but makes you face a lesser charge, versus something like 1st degree murder. When Picard confronts Kevin Uxbridge he lets him leave not because respecting his alien alien culture. But because he can't hold and punish him. Using respecting others cultures is an extremely weak attempt to erase a fault in the episode. I mean if an Orion ever joined Starfleet would they just let them enslave others, because it's their culture? Deltans to serve on starship regardless of their personal culture still have to take that vow of celibacy. Now could I reasonable see them dropping charges about killing a head of state? Due to the wishes of the Klingon Empire? Yeah I can see that. But desertion? For premeditated murder in general? Sorry doesn't fly. No Trail of any kind? Even one where your found not guilty? Sorry no. Utterly destroyed the ending to a great episode. Even the writers Moore an drag say it's garbage. That there is no legitimate in universe reason for why Worf is not prosecuted. But they also understand the reality of the type of writing that they can do on the show. Meaning Worf is staying on the show, that they aren't going to do a court show next week over this episode to attempt a better band aid over the situation. So this is what we get.

Paul Noad

You know an episode is well written when you wish it was more contrived so a great character doesn't have to die. I'm also sad that K'Ehleyr died, but I appreciate this episode's commitment to consequences.

Deep Red

The show really is all killer, no filler.

Chris S.

Kehlar was pregnant BEFORE “Emissary”. She just kept it secret. She had gotten pregnant probably a year before that the last time they see each other off screen that is mentioned, because Alexander looks like he’s about 5 years old. Head canon. Alex and Josh… do you think thats reasonable?

Alan Thompson

Any character and therefore actor can return in the holodeck whenever the writers want them to. I'm sure Worf had several saved "calisthenics" programs with K'Ehleyr in them.

JD Nevesytrof

When something gets rated that high, I again feel like we expect to hear more about why it was great than what disappointed you, and it feels like this was 80% disappointment.

Monty Crawford

I always wondered that myself.

Monty Crawford

As awesome and beautiful that the Vor'cha is, it's one Star Trek model I've really not had any interest in building. And I've built just about every Star Trek kit available.

Jovet

@Rhett Coates Humans...? 😏

Collin Freeman

Prune juice

Rhett Coates

Klingons don't. But we know a 'Trek species who does...............

Rhett Coates

To witness someone so beloved - by the characters within the story AND by the fans of the series - it was shocking and made many of us damn mad to lose someone (both the character AND the actress who portrayed her) we wished we could have see more of had she not been killed. Yes, I agree: the stakes were raised far higher, and seemed to indicate that this storyline wasn't completely over..............................

Jovet

Wow! That's a fantastic point about the bomb timing that I'd never thought of or heard before. 👍👍👍

Jovet

Oh—I have some things to say on this, but it will have to wait a long, long time. Coz spoilers. 🤦

Jovet

I admit, this is one that I thought could yank a tear out of both of them. If only just one tear. Josh looked close; Alex looked maybe too angry. I still anticipate full-out bawling coming up.

Jovet

Nah. 7 > 2

Jovet

Josh up and ragequit at the happiest part, and didn't at the saddest part.

David Marcoot

the music was outstanding

Timothy Nikiforovs

Worf is one of those dads that's always running out of milk and/or cigarettes

Timothy Nikiforovs

That's another angle I didn't think of. Also as detailed in my comment, the federation would be real glad a Romulan friendly leader didn't end up in charge of the empire.

Timothy Nikiforovs

"You will die, slowly👁😁👁 Durraaasssss" Robert O'Reilly's performance as Gowron is such a meme. Definitely one of the more expressive klingons we've seen. The actor appeared briefly in the episode Manhunt as Scarface in the Dixon Hill program. Excellent episode. Tons of development for Worf and for the klingon political plotline. Great to see that bastard Duras "get the point" as one of the patron takes put it. Also great to see this level of energy and engagement in a reaction again. So aside from Crusher saying that the bomb was implanted in the arm of one of Duras' guards, and his father's dealings with the romulans, there's another clue pointing to him being the assassin. If the bomb's detonator is triggered by molecular decay, I assume once it's set the timer can't be easily changed or disarmed, and it's just down to the half life of whatever substance it uses. Duras was rather perturbed by Picard making him wait an hour, and was pretty insistent he make a decision after they confirmed K'Mpec was dead. It mat be the nature of the detonator required very precise timing and Picard's delays were getting in the way. We never get confirmation on who poisoned K'Mpec, and they throw some hints at Gowron possibly being responsible, but I think once we know Duras planted the bomb, we're meant to take that as a misdirect. Sucks to lose K'Ehleyr, but she got 2 fantastic episodes and made a lasting impact on fans. For a guest star, she made out pretty good in the end. Every time though when Duras walks in, I keep wishing she'd pull out a phaser. She's smart enough to know digging around in that kind of coverup was bound to piss someone off. As for why Worf merely got a reprimand for killing Duras, I'd say it was because as Picard said, the klingons considered it a legal duel, and also it happened on a klingon ship, where the federation has no jurisdiction. I guess it's kind of like an embassy, or how someone can't be charged for a crime if they take drugs that are illegal at home but legal in the place they're visiting. On top of that, with it being clear Duras was working with Romulans, if he became leader of the high council, it would be very, VERY bad for the federation. Starfleet was probably quite happy a threat like that was taken out with no diplomatic repercussions to speak of. Also, Duras murdered a federation citizen on starfleet's flagship. Starfleet would almost certainly have demanded he be extradited had Worf not killed him, which would no doubt be a lot more complicated than Duras being disposed of in a nice clean duel nobody will question. Worf's reprimand was for going AWOL and going around the chain of command to make a decision that could have major political consequences. In short, as glad as Starfleet was to see Duras dead, Worf was acting like a loose cannon, not a starfleet officer. It's a lapse in discipline a hierarchical organization like starfleet can't just ignore, even if they're fine with the end result. Finally, the family theme of S4 keeps going strong. Worf is a dad. I do feel bad for Alexander though, or Dorf I guess we're calling him now(funny that works out being a portmanteau of "Dorn" and "Worf"). He just watched his mom die and now his father is shipping him off to live with people he's never met. Still a touching moment at the end when Worf finally accepts him as his son..............right before shipping him off to the grandparents. Alexander's actor, Jon Steuer, didn't live a very long life. He ended up quitting acting at 12, started a band in 2003 that ended up breaking up 6 years later. After that he opened a vegan restaurant in Portland which closed in 2018 after he killed himself. He was only 33. Very sad story.

Nolan

Why was Worf not punished harsher for his actions by Picard or Starfleet? Well, Picard was put in the unenviable position of choosing the LEADER of the Klingon people out of two challengers. No matter which choice he makes, there would be accusations of Federation interference and bias. This was an impossible situation for Picard, and for the Federation. But then along comes Worf with his Klingon revenge ritual that the Klingons respect, and he kills one of the challengers. Impossible situation solved in a way the Klingons won't question, Picard doesn't have to make that impossible choice and the Federation gets to claim neutrality. Worf isn't punished further because he solved their problem. they have to go trough the motions a bit, but both Picard and the Federation are probably relieved to be out of that situation.

T’Pynyn of Vulcan

I enjoyed watching with you gentlemen. I’m heartbroken every time. Worf is a terrible father. The actors who played K’mpec and Gowron were great!

Philbot

I don’t enjoy Suzie’s acting I think she’s mostly wooden except for when she’s being melodramatic. “Ergh my Klingon temper.” 😑

Philbot

I think the whole point of her death is so Worf fucks Duras up. He was a pussy ass villain who can only kill a woman and thinks he’s fit to lead.. Not only did he get his revenge and defeat his rival, but set his people on the right path..

Matt Everkoul

Hey, you never know, Suzie Plakson can always return as Dr. Selar 🖖

Eric Wilson

No. Lol

Eric Wilson

No me it is cemented when he says "you will never get your honor back if you kill me" at that point he has to, otherwise for the sake of the show it looks like Worf was a coward who only didn't kill him so he could more easily get his honor back. That was the point of no return on the show for the viewers. Lol

Eric Wilson

They never do. Even better Wolf: *sticks combadge on her* "computer lock onto my combadge and beam directly to sickbay." "Computer alert all crew members in sickbay of emergency beam in and notify security officers No name and no name that there has been a attack in this room" "Computer, has anyone been in this room in the last 3 hours except me, Alexander, and her?"

Eric Wilson

I always thought it was quite the bad father move to send away your child the day after you meet him and the day you tell him he's your son, on the day his mother died.

Dan Halstead

True but in this case Picard was appointed to moderate regarding who was a worthy successor. Which presumably means he is allowed to apply his own values to the situation.

Dan Halstead

"Dorf on Golf" is what it reminded me of...!

Clyde Frog

This is one I have been waiting for you guys to watch for a while now. It's one of my faves for sure. Suzie Plakson is always so phenomenal, and the interesting Klingon stuff going on. This one gets me emotional when Kheylar dies, and when Worf is talking to Alexander. There is another one coming up soon I can't wait for you guys to see!

Dan Halstead

Was watching another reactor who kept calling him the angry muppet. Cracked me up XD

Dan Halstead

As he was talking to Picard I found myself wishing for the old Klingon lady to stroll past the open door saying, "You're still fat, K'mpec!"

Tony B

I'll be calling Alexander Dorf from now on.

Jovet

She died doing what she loved: Being a vocal badass.

Jovet

The joy and the despair on their faces are really palpable.

Jovet

Exactly!!

Sixto

No doubt, but just the drama is at soap opera level.

Jovet

This does not feel soap-opera-y to me. Soap operas are camp, cheesy, and over the top. This episode is none of these things. Real shit happened!

Jovet

@Darren Seal Don't they??

Jovet

"well executed" I see what you did thar...

Jovet

"Fat-Elf" got it 😉

Jovet

@Paul O'Neal When has Star Trek ever been hypocritical and set a bad precedent? *smirk* (Do remember that hypocrisy is "saying one thing and BELIEVING something else," not "saying one thing and DOING something else.")

Jovet

"I disagree" is all I can muster. On all levels.

Jovet

It's, basically, like the Scottish clans of old. Several Earth cultures have had similar practices.

Sam Langanke

Don't worry. This episode will have consequences on many levels.

Evan Guthrie

Well, now that she's dead, there's nothing they can do to ruin her in the future. The quit while you're ahead approach.

Sam Langanke

You are interested how the Federation and the Klingons "got together"? I was too. Do you think we will see that?

Joe Concepts

One thing I think about Worf's character is on some level, I see him as still sort of an immature person who's still figuring himself out. He sometimes is sort of naive, like how he kind of tells Picard, "What? That's what Klingons allow me to do! I didn't do anything wrong."

Scarpad’s Domain

the Klingon story changes and progresses it was a stepping stone in that. And because herr character was successful is exactly why she could be used like that in the story

Scarpad’s Domain

as long as the death is written well and it's absolutely earned bring it on

Scarpad’s Domain

thought the writing and her death was absolutely earned here

Narnman

only on this re-watch did i pick up on that

Narnman

yeah why not beam in directly

Devon Cooper

This is in my top 10 every time! Great reaction guys. Your surprise like 5-6 times is just priceless!!!😎

Narnman

K'mpec died and he was still fat until the end! First time we see the awesome Klingon Vor'cha attack cruiser

Jovet

R.I.P. Jon Paul Steuer (1984–2018)

Matt Newmark

That reddit nerds are still arguing about what we just watched? I don't see how lol

marty63026

I just said the Night Stalker movie was your best reaction, I stand corrected. The is my favorite reaction so far, great stuff guys.

Nolan

Seinfeld had season long arcs, as did Friends. It's weird it took drama programs so long to catch on. But comedies also had the out of ignoring continuity for the sake of a joke, which took precidence.

Nolan

No, we get it, we just all lost her a loong time ago.

Dark Kronis

yes i am your father now excuse me i must go to the store for some milk

Adam Reid

Sorry, Westeros, but no one plays the Game of Thrones quite like the Klingons,

Dark Kronis

Gowron's of house Crazy eyes

Eric Singer

Your reaction of Worf killing Duras was the same as mine the first time I saw it (and several subsequent times): "Did that just happen?!"

Phil Ken Sebben

“K’Ehleyr was my mate, I claim the right of vengeance”

Jovet

I loooove Gowron's stare of death "As will I." at Duras, once the mode of detonator was revealed.

Jovet

I've always thought it was funny that K'Ehleyr waited to ask Picard about Worf's discommendation on her way out the door with the door wide open. LOL

Forbidden Donut

I've been looking forward to your reaction to this one, and this was a lot of fun to watch with you. It is frustrating to me to see the term ‘fridging’ being brought up in the comments to describe K’Ehleyr’s death. Fridging usually implies poor writing and/or misogyny, and I think both are uncalled for here. I love this episode. I think it was well executed and interesting, and it serves not only as a good follow up to past events, but it is also sets up multiple future events as well.

Jonathan Llyr

Been looking forward to this reaction and it didn’t disappoint! Even though I’ve seen this episode dozens of times, watching it with you guys brought back all the tension I felt when seeing it for the first time!

Jovet

19:50 The Klingon painstiks.

Darren Seal

His eyes should get special credits

Jovet

8:45 Josh has the most captivated look frozen on his face. LOL!

Dark Kronis

when i first saw this i really questioned, how many years had past since season 2, or was it Klingon kids have a really fast growth period from new born

Phil Ken Sebben

Gonna be hard to hide that Gowron is a fan favorite

CM Waters

Much needed too. With the Federation having ships like the Enterprise out there, and the Romulans having their warbirds, the Klingons needed something more impressive than the Bird of Prey ships, as versatile as they are.

Greg Quinn

I'll never get over how long it took Crusher to get to the quarters.

Keith S

I think this was rhe first episode to show a batleth.

Paul O'Neal

Agreed, she was one of the best guest characters in any Trek series and could have easily been a regular. And her death does walk the line of fridging a female character to develop a male character. I think the fact that K'Ehleyr is killed because she found out the truth about Duras and the cover-up AND that she was undoubtedly going to blow the whistle (I mean she gave zero shits about anyone's honor and probably thought the Empire could use a good shake up) meant he was going to kill her, no matter what. Her death was really a consequence of her own choices than being all about Worf. Still hurts to lose her, though. Suzie Plakson is a hell of an actress, and it was great having her on TNG for the short time we did.

Paul O'Neal

Agreed. I think if we go all the way back to "Amok Time" in TOS, there is a very real possibility that Spock might have killed Stonn during a Koon-ut-kal-if-fee duel. I think Starfleet would have given that a pass, as it would have all been a part of Vulcan law, tradition, and culture. As he thought he'd killed Kirk - his commanding officer - Spock was demanding he be arrested at the end of that episode. It was not because he KILLED Kirk but because he killed KIRK. Or so he thought. Starfleet - hell, the Federation - has embraced multiculturalism and lets each member world dictate its laws and customs as they see fit. To drum Worf out of the service in this case would have been hypocritical and set bad precedent. But as rightly pointed out, had K'Ehleyr lived and the duel not been legal, Worf would have been a criminal and not shielded by law and tradition. Just my take on it anyway.

Darren Seal

That’s what I was thinking 😃

Ee'char

typo, was to be pronounced "Batt-lelth"

Collin Freeman

Interesting. Sounds like "bat-health" if you're not careful how you say it.

Sixto

It would hold up on tv tng court tho 🤣

Sixto

The soap opera level on this ep is at 11… but so well earned! And you can tell in your reaction ! Soooo gooood!

Timothy Nikiforovs

Very true Phil. Starfleet would be very happy that the possibility of a klingon/romulan alliance against them was averted. What Worf did created no diplomatic incident, and in all likelihood Picard would have demanded Duras be extradited for the murder of K'Ehleyr, a federation citizen. The whole thing is a mess, but what Worf did was perfectly legal under klingon law, and happened on a klingon ship, outside federation jurisdiction. The reprimand was because Worf went AWOL to do it.

Jovet

More than just implied by the bomb. Dr. Crusher's findings and Riker's comment about glorious suicide are a giant flashing marquis sign!

Jovet

Seems a shame to deprive himself of a masterful Susie Plakson performance...

Jovet

@Lt Dan I scream *Iyz

Jovet

Nah, his crotch is too tight.

Jovet

You also missed a New character unlocked: Gowron's eyes

Jovet

🏅🥇👍

Jovet

Picard's line there highlights his lack of knowledge about K'Ehleyr and Worf's relationship.

Jovet

In addition, crimes of passion are in themselves often considered an extenuating circumstance. There is a difference between finding your spouse in bed with someone else and killing him then and there out of rage, versus finding out your lover is having an affair and planning out the murder of one or both of them.

Jovet

We can discuss this (who poisoned K'mpec) further after certain future episodes...

Jovet

Spoilers?

Jovet

@Target Audience What about your boy, Wynrick Kohls? 🙂

Jovet

@Collin Freeman I mean, that is a possibility. But, Occam's Razor. And Klingons don't "do" deception like that.

Timothy Nikiforovs

Star Trek III "And mine"

AzoriusMage

Really good episode and loved your reaction.

James Bottas

Not sure where Alex got that Worf had grown beyond or moved passed being excommunicated....? It's what consumes him 24/7 ever since it happened lol

The Ninth Doctor

Cliff BOOOOLE!!

The Ninth Doctor

It is indeed. And not the last.

The Ninth Doctor

It's heavily implied that Duras poisoned K'mpec, both to protect his/their secret as well as take power over the Empire. It's also confirmed that the bomb was implanted in the arm of Duras' guy. Nk double crossing or bait/switch to Gowron... Duras *was* the asshole.

Josh (Target Audience)

W dad

Nathan Koga

Alex and my dad are on the same wavelength with this one- to this day he won't watch it again because of K'Ehleyr.

Lt Dan I scream

I just call him eyes

Steven Linden

It's simple - Alex wants Worf to kill Duras, but also wants him to feel bad about it.

Darin Wagner

No, Derek... a sanctioned duel in which one is killed is not murder... by definition.

James Bottas

Great reaction. One for the Best of collection

Michael Figueroa

I always thought his bootlaces were too tight.

Nerd's Gold

We all know what K'Ehleyr would have done with the information that she uncovered. To hell with what happens to the Empire, she would shout the truth that Worf was innocent. If she hadn't died, Worf would have had no reason to kill Duras (Think about the repercussions if Worf only thought that K'Ehlyar was dead and still killed Duras.) Try to write an ending to this story without K'Ehlyar dying. Without Worf killing Duras. Would you simply have Gowron kill Duras to take the seat? How weak would that have felt?

Samuel Morrell

Man of the People?

Zack

The score for this and her previous episode is dope

Eric Wilson

I'm waiting for some expressions from season 5 and 6. Some of my favorite episodes.

Eric Wilson

Depends kind of. With the Klingon legal system, it was like trial by combat. He was executed for committing a murder. Or the old Kingdom of Israel laws with the avenger of blood.

Steven Portillo

In my opinion, this caps off one of the greatest ever episodic runs of Trek until mid to late Deep Space 9. Still some great stuff to come in Season 4, but that mid-Season 3 to early-Season 4 ride up until ep 7 is absolute peak TNG.

Phil Ken Sebben

I loved her too.

Lt Dan I scream

weird characters always die when Frakes directs ...

Josh (Target Audience)

Murder by definition must be illegal therefore under Klingon law it was not murder.

Josh (Target Audience)

It only took 1 episode to make her a main character in our hearts 😪

Lt Dan I scream

You know its good Alex and Josh in the bargaining phase of grief. TNG the stakes are real. Can favorites die.. yup. Makes the show mean more. Its legit sad that we lose someone we actually care about.

Josh (Target Audience)

Y’all don’t understand what she meant to us man 😩

Josh (Target Audience)

Bro said 👁️👁️

Christopher Dorn

You've met Gowron. Congratulations. 😏😏😏

wildhunt1973

Robert O'Reilly was great. And this episode does continue the season of family episodes. I love episodes where you get this excited. If Worf had killed Duras and Khylar had survived, Worf would have been kicked out of Starfleet and the Klingon Empire would have had no choice but to bring him up on charges. It would have completely ruined Worf's character. But because it happened this way, because she died, Worf got vengeance under Klingon rules and Starfleet had no choice but to accept the result, even if they didn't like it.

Derek Orr

a duel to the death is still a murder

Brendon Waldron

Regardless of gender, fridging a guest star for the development of a main character isn't really what that trope is about, it's more for regular/recurring characters. The character only existed in the first place as development for a main character, which is often the point of guest stars. Of course, she had the potential to be a more prominent character and if this had happened down the line, the trope would be more accurate.

Phil Ken Sebben

I vehemently disagree, it’s a Klingon issue that took place on a Klingon ship and was legal under Klingon law. To that point Duras was a blatant threat to the security of the federation. Starfleet knew the business with the romulans and the death of Duras is in their best interest.

lee - ber nool

I wonder if Alexander will be their new favorite guest star :P

Firekrys FWO

DAMN now I have to wait until I get home. But this is one hell of an episode. I thought this was incredible. We've all been waiting for your reaction to this. BTW - I've always said Gowron's eyes look like he's left in his contact lenses for too long.

THE LORE!!!

I really would love to hear the guys theorize on what they think will happen next in this particular storyline. In the meantime, Alex did a good job making a case for the A and I loved seeing Josh grin like a madman for the first half of the episode.

Max Yoder

With regards to Worf dealing with the whole being a traitor thing and how it would pass to Alexander... I think that he was fine accepting that fate for himself. That was his choice. Now his choice is affecting someone else, and that's why I think he has trepidation.

Avaria

Always remember, from the time he was a child, Worf, deep in his heart, wants to be the most Klingon Klingon who ever Klingon'd. That means he found the most hierarchical structure available to him on Earth -- Starfleet -- and, day-to-day, expresses his Klingon-ness by serving dutifully and ensuring that he and his crew are always prepared for battle should it find them. But the -second- other Klingons are involved, he will slot himself firmly into the most traditional, ritualistic groove he can and all of his actions will come from that core place. "I killed him. I recognize it was wrong. Punish me as you will."? Not going to happen because that's not how he sees it. "I killed him, as was my right. My family, and K'Ehleyr's honor have been championed, although I, in my discommendation, cannot fully avenge them. Still, some satisfaction may be found, as someone as dishonorable as Duras did not deserve to die by the hand of anyone worthy of name." That's closer to how he sees it.

Phil Ken Sebben

Excellent episode, You can be sad about K’Ehleyr but.. New characters unlocked: Alexander Gowron Surprised that Alex was so mad in the moment about the death.

Max Yoder

I absolutely love these Kingon Political Intrigue episodes... particularly because one usually would not think "political intrigue" when you think "klingon."

Reginald Garey

No Dr. Crusher said it was Duris man that had the bomb

Darren Seal

Think the show tried to hand wave some issues by making it happen on a Klingon ship, so effectively in their jurisdiction.

Derek Orr

It’s interesting how many people think that episodic means no continuity…thats really not the case for most shows from that era…outside of pure sitcoms maybe. Episodic really is just about NOT telling only one single plot stretched over a short season (what we used to call a mini series)

Darren Seal

He would be the obvious choice :)

Deep Red

Yeah it definitely is something the show struggles with sometimes when you see how many female cast members "quit" the show because they didn't like what the writers were doing with their characters.

Deep Red

While I do think the death of K'Ehleyr was well executed, I totally agree that I wanted her to stick around. There was so much you could do with her and Worf and a potential son.

Ee'char

fun fact, the Bat'leth was originally spelled Bat'telh (pronouned Batt-elth)

Deep Red

Maybe it was Picard shielding Worf from consequences because he understood the extenuating circumstances. Would Picard do that? Maybe that wouldn't be in his character. But maybe he had sympathy because Worf's life has been so difficult trying to balance his duty to Starfleet with his Klingon heritage and desire to be a Klingon.

Juan Tutrífor

Had to be Duras. Gowron's a sneaky SOB, but he's still hella Klingon.

That one green Bolian

Been waiting for this one. Your reactions were great and pretty much what I expected!

Avaria

What was the point? In my mind there were two. 1) Duras needed tangible crimes of his own in order to justify Worf's vengeance -- in a purely "one of our 'Good Guys' has to outright kill somebody" sense. And 2) since this is the season where they really start leaning in and testing if the continuity can support minor serialization, some crumbs needed to be lain down for the near future. Sorry fellas, as Picard said, "We all admired K'Ehleyr."

KatWithAttitude

Might be kind of hard to arrange for that now.

Keith S

A bit of trivia on the side. I think this is the first appearance of a Klingon Vorcha class starship.

Column Meanie

Well, he DID get a reprimand…. 🤷‍♂️ Ok, I’m laughing too.

Collin Freeman

Agreed. Work should have been demoted at the very least and more likely should have gone to court to answer charges of murder within Federation law.

Collin Freeman

Good terminology. Yes, this is very Shakespearean/operatic.

Keith S

I knew when you guys saw this episode you'd have a strong reaction to it. Still, you excrded my expectations.

Collin Freeman

Unless the Duras man was a double-agent and really working for Gowrun. Oh what a tangled web...

Collin Freeman

Agreed. I thought that part was lame, aside from this being a great episode.

Josh (Target Audience)

Klingon court is a sham so of course it would!

Josh (Target Audience)

Can he just 50/50 split the whole series with Cliff Bole?

Josh (Target Audience)

I hate it so much. One of the biggest writing crutches imo. It is so hard to determine if I am angry because the death was effective or I am angry the writers settled for fridging lol

Mark Wood

The only thing wrong with this great episode is that Worf faces no punishment for this. A deliberate act of Murder by not only a Federation Citizen but a Starfleet officer. And that deliberate murder was to one of the Key political leaders of a foreign nation. There excuse that the Klingons see nothing wrong with this is utterly irrelevant. It's illegal to kill in the Federation. He is on active duty in Starfleet and deserts to kill someone. He would be tried as a murderer and he would absolutely be cashiered out of Starfleet. The episode is great, but the ending with Worf is a complete joke.

Darren Seal

For me a Great episode - world building, character drama, continuity so much to love. And adore the fact we never get told who killed K’mpec Worf goes full Klingon at the end too and love the ambiguity of his actions. By Klingons standards he’s in the clear and a perfect Klingon…

Matt Newmark

Alex - "Death is so final in this world." Yesterday's Enterprise - "Hold my beer."

Max Yoder

Ever since seeing your reaction to her first appearance I have been waiting for this.

Matt Newmark

Sadly, K'Ehleyr had to be killed so that Duras could be. That entire sequence from the door to her quarters opening to the blade sticking out of Duras' chest are burnt into my mind, powerful stuff. I'm seeing a lot of comments here that are VERY sure of themselves re: who poisoned K'mpec - for the record that was NOT definitively proven in-universe and people are still debating that issue 30 years later.

Sharron

Fridging women characters for male development was prevalent in this era of television/movies. This is at least one of the better versions of the trope.

Derek Orr

Its wild that Worf commits murder and simply gets a reprimand on his record…as if he was late for work too many times

Derek Orr

In a Klingon court it would

KatWithAttitude

Frakes is very good at directing tearjerkers. Would you like to see what he does with some other type of episode?

Jovet

1:26:28 Who sits on the "Klingon throne" at the end is less obvious. But, since Duras is dead, it's very apparent it will be Gowron.

Jovet

1:23L48 Never once did I suspect Worf would choose to miss Duras in his final move. Vengence SHALL be his!!

Josh (Target Audience)

That’s fair & what we were basically saying when comparing Klingon to Human law/morality. It’s very interesting

Incredible Jon

One thing to mention because you asked about it, klingons don't have a surname as much as they state their father and the house they belong to, usually an ancestor of renown.. hence worf is worf son of mogh. Alexander would be alexander son of worf of the house of mogh.

Jovet

Murder is also what Duras did to K'Ehleyr.

Jovet

This is one of my most favorite TNG episodes, everyone is just fantastic in this. K'Ehleyr was killed off *because* most of us love her! And its super-high-stakes impact to Worf (and Dorf).

Jovet

The bomb was in Duras's guy's arm. It's not plausible that Gowron snuck a guy with a bomb onto Duras's team. Riker even explicitly pointed out “It's considered an honorable way for a Klingon to die, a suicide that takes an enemy with it.”

Jovet

The Dorf thing is super funny to me, there's a character named Dorf in *my* favorite television series (Classic Doctor Who) and that story takes place in 2379, whereas this one is in 2367.

Darin Wagner

I would argue that Worf did not murder Duras. It was a duel. A sanctioned, legal battle where two men enter and one man leaves. "Murder" was what Duras did to K'mpec.

Steven Johnson

This is one that's been waiting in the wings for awhile. There's a couple more sleeper hits like this yet to come, but this one, on a personal level, knowing your affection for that Season 2 chestnut. This was a long time coming. I think they got just about everything out of Kehy'ler's return that you possibly could. R.I.P. to the ridged-head space queen.

Jovet

1:09:02 In that same vein, Picard's statement “Klingon tradition may hold the son responsible for his father's sin. I cannot, Worf. Treason was his father's crime.” is really odd. It's an inappropriate application of human values to a very Klingon matter.

DG

True, but poison is shown to be not an honourable Klingon method of killing, and it is established (both in this episode and in his previous appearance) that Duras and his family lack such honour.

Jovet

Yeah it would.

Josh (Target Audience)

Thanks! The implication is clear, but there was no follow up or conclusion

Josh (Target Audience)

That wouldn’t hold up in court Jovet

DG

Another excellent reaction. However, it should be stressed that the episode makes very clear that Duras is responsible for both key deaths.

Darin Wagner

Yep, TA had the proper reaction. lol

Jovet

56:30 Wrong, Alex (and Josh)! They DID say! Once Beverly figures out that the bomb was in someone's forearm, Riker asks, and she states "Duras's man." 100% not ambiguous.

Jovet

51:18 It's okay, Josh, it's okay. Just let it all out! 😭

Jovet

*DORF!

Turtleboy

I am so glad that you remained spoiler free from this.

Jovet

45:46 Yeah, you're tear ranking them alright.

A G

Were you talking to me? ... no, My son is always named DORF.

EnigmaticPenguin

This one broke my heart... Alex is now able to pronounce my name.

Prof Moff

The sex scoreboard update Riker 6 Troi 3 Data 1 Picard 1 Worf 1 can't give a +1 since it is a repeat but we have PROOF of the first time. Jordy 1 + 1 I Broccoli 2 i Honorable mentions for ep specific Josh and Alex +1 - I can't prove what happened but I am sure "something" happened in the following moments K'Lar (yes I know spelling) appears on the screen Alexander appears on transporter Director reveal I was not there in the room but I am sure some form of excitement explosion happened (clarification - not with each other I mean a self-accidental... you know)