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Interview with Virginia Heffernan on Science & Culture Wars (Video Version) UNEDITED

🕑 Added 2022-01-27 05:31:44 +0000 UTC

Comments

oh shizzzzz

God dammit this app sucks for listening to older episodes

Jenna Behm

I'm just getting to this one, but she said a similar thing several times, and it bothered me as well (as a psychologist). Firstly, neuroscience is definitely a 'real field' and IS a scientific discipline- as is evolutionary psychology (another one she said wasn't science). I take issue with the idea that the only 'real' sciences are ones like chemistry, and the whole idea of a 'soft science' is ridiculous. Any discipline in which the scientific method is used can be a science, and can be rigorous, and in ANY field there are people who use it well and people who don't. As Matt and Chris have pointed out- there can be definite methodological issues in studies in every field, but dismissing fields as 'not science' because they're complicated seems uninformed.

MaxPlan

I was fascinated by the insight into edge.org, lately I have been feeling let down by a lot of science communication outlets that sensationalize their content a little too much. This insight makes me wonder how much of our tech industry's culture aligns with the IDW. It seems like people who have this grand view of humanity destined to colonize the stars are more prone to follow the IDW type gurus.

Lina Neild Robinson

Could Chris please provide any reference details for the Irish Ethnography of ca. one century ago, that he talked about? I would dearly love to read it.

Lina Neild Robinson

Enjoyed reliving the Obeyesekere vs Sahlins debate. I remember feeling that Obeyesekere was way off when he claimed that Polynesian cannibalism was a Western European fiction - using what seemed to be mainly Western European sources to prove it. Nineteenth century NZ Maori language sources along with European and British visitors from the eighteenth century onwards provide evidence that the consumption of defeated enemies and enslaved captives occurred and was entirely comprehensible in terms of the Maori religious, ritual, and general cultural contexts of the time.

CLP

Any chance you cover jonathan haidt? Especially the righteous mind? you had some negative things to say about his social media work, and he has bits of pieces of guru behaviors

Michael Morency-Frame

The insider look at edge.org was fascinating. I am amazed that Epstein is still on their website. If it is a grand eugenics conspiracy, then it's a very sloppy one.

TheRick

I really enjoyed the whole discussion, but was also wondering about the neuroscience quip, and wondered if it was the more reductive versions she was dismissing (i.e., that grieving or loving or consciousness itself are "simply" caused mechanically by physiological, chemical, and electrical processes in the brain). I was very interested hearing Virginia's enthusiasm for "The Dawn of Everything" early in the conversation, as I recently read it too, and got a lot out of the book. I'd like to hear Chris and Matt's take on the work, though unless one labels David Graeber a "guru," it may be out of scope for this podcast.

Christopher Kavanagh

I presumed she was referring to people over extrapolating from small N studies and/or the revelations around common software being miscalibrated. There is a lot to criticise but I don't think it is a non-science.

Lucy

Yes, I thought that was odd as well. My son majored in neuro science and we chatted about it on the phone last night. He said it was a great major, half hard science, half soft. And it was good for getting in to medical school too! So many of the things Virginia said were really odd….

JJ

This was a great interview, but one line from Virginia has been bothering me since listening. She mentioned neuroscience, then instantly dismissed it as a "fake field". Can someone explain to me why she said that? Did I interpret her wrong?

Virginia Heffernan

Yes. And reciprocally false is a straight story of early humans as swashbuckling ladies’ men who lived on violence and adrenaline, and did nothing but chase power and world domination.

Erin Dougherty

Yes! Glad to hear a call for the end of the "amazingly talented, magical, intuitive, egalitarian, warless early man" narrative. It comes through often in racially charged ways that are easily identified (American Spirit cigarettes), but calling it out in all the other areas like feminism and health is so necessary.

Virginia Heffernan

Thanks so much everyone! Happy to meet up on that Twitter web site too: @page88

Christopher Kavanagh

Yeah I’m fine with that too. Still a long way off but we can dream!

Jennifer Nelson

I loved this conversation and have now subscribed to Virginia Heffernan's podcast too. I will disagree with something that it seems like Chris was saying towards the end, which is that what we are striving for, ideally, is a raceless, genderless, etc society (at least, that's what it sounded to me like he was saying), and my opinion is that the ideal goal would be a society where different races, genders etc. exist but exist without hierarchy and suppression. Hey, as long as we're shooting for the stars, right?

Lane

Didn’t realize how bad I was craving this type of media, seriously. Lucid & engaged & interesting - thanks!

Alex Nelson

Very interesting conversation. Liked it a lot. This one felt different than other guests so far. There was a lot of going "into the weeds" on very academic topics that I appreciated.

widget

Yeah, it was a good point. So much of modern life is about being spood-fed (just scroll Netflix instead of searching for a movie by director/country/whatever). People do want intellectual engagement but just find themselves on the path of least resistance. I know I suffer from that anyway. I like the idea of exploring what's behind the huge followings they amass, what draws people in (DtG mostly just covers what makes a guru a guru). I think you've covered one aspect; I think another one might be that they identify with the gurus - they're disaffected in their personal lives, nobody understands them or acknowledges where they've been, and they feel as though someone like Eric Weintein (with all the grievance mongering) would be 'in their corner' (the parasocial bullshit). ^^ forgive the galaxy-brained hot take, just spitballing

Giovanni

It was a good conversation though the there was kind of a rough start. Definitely agree with the culture war and the sense making people being uninteresting in general.

KMD

What a fantastic discussion! So many ideas that swirl around my head were manifested here. Listening to an actual intellectual is such a delight. Also, not enough is made of the misogyny, and down right sexual exploitation that seems to be common amongst these men who think they are so “smart”. Also, I too love this podcast for its laughter and lightness. The IDW types are so faux serious, ugh!

Exai

Nice change of pace for a more arts-y guest! Virginia's point on how many people WANT to be intellectually engaged is underappreciated. With gurus they're mostly just getting whatever pops into our their minds during each other's podcasts, or what shows up in their social media feeds. Such a depressing waste of potential. The thirst that something like an openness towards the humanities could help quench, is instead force fed by some dime store pundits whose ignorance, incuriosity and hostility towards so much of human intellectual life can only really hold you down. Maybe there's also the problem. What if online media algorithms have found out and proven that rather than intellectual engagement, people prefer simple answers and clear rules to what they're meant to talk and think about? People might enjoy fifteen minute bites of Kurzgesagt, that's great. What if you rather need something for killing two thousands hours while your brain is trying to unwind from a bullshit job, and the feeling of education is always going to be better than having to deal with the ambiguities of intellectual engagement?

widget

This is so good so far. Virginia could be a regular guest on DtG. Couldn't find the thread she mentioned about the plague of Justinian :\ edit: found it (I think) - https://twitter.com/page88/status/1486361539212947462