Decoding The Gurus patreon

Talking about our research (Chris edition)

🕑 Added 2021-11-22 02:36:10 +0000 UTC

Comments

Sian Gibby

Thanks for this message, Gretchen!

Gretchen Koch

John McWhorter is full of shit. He's an atheist who admits to not having studied religion, which really comes through in how he either dilutes the definition of religion to something that would include anti-wokeness just as easily as wokeness (also phenomena like Alcoholics Anonymous, concerts, moral philosophy generally..) as religions, or tries to frame wokeism/the elect/anti-racists/whatever as religion by applying basic Sunday School Protestant concepts and stretching them like Silly Putty over this one particular system of meaning that he happens to oppose.

Gretchen Koch

I guess it's pretty dated at this point, but Justin Barrett (a theist, rather rare among cog sci people) published Why Would Anyone Believe in God? in 2004, and it's a good primer on the kinds of questions that are asked when researching this subject. As I recall, Barrett also took up the argument that there is zero conflict in studying cog sci of religion as a theist, because of course if God exists, it/they would naturally provide humans with a capacity to recognize that existence.

Gretchen Koch

I tend to think of karma as a kind of supernatural agency as well, because it's a force in existence that doesn't just respond to, but creates, consequences in terms of rebirth for the moral behavior of individuals. That is at least supernatural in the sense that it defies the processes of cause and effect, but I also see agency in it because of the basis on which these "consequences" are determined. As in, the natural world doesn't give a damn about the moral character of your thoughts and behaviors-- agents are the only ones who make moral judgments.

Sian Gibby

Thanks, Carolyn. It's hard for me to imagine anyone not being impressed, on some level, by that kind of exercise in piety. I suppose it's possible for someone to perform these things in a self-aggrandizing way, but if they are paying AND suffering it seems much less likely. In general I am a big fan of opportunities for experiencing humility and think we don't take advantage of them enough or seek them out, when they mostly are beneficial.

Carolyn Reeves

Hey Sian, wanted to add something to your anecdote about the carrying of the heavy Catholic floats. I was lucky enough to observe a similar procession (for Good Friday) in Guatemala many years ago. A local told me that the men who do the backbreaking work of lifting all of that weight pay handsomely for the privilege to do so- because it is considered a weighty act of penance. A lot of bang for their buck, if you will. I was told that the guys carrying the floats were generally wealthy men- maybe the quick and dirty (and expensive) penance is suited for their lifestyle and manner of sins. Of course, there are other motivations (beyond absolving sins) involved in why people value sacrifice and suffering in their rituals- and I think that it’s a fascinating topic and I hope Chris speaks about it further!

Stew Glenn

Suggested title for these “bites”: Decoding the Decoders.

Stew Glenn

Thanks for this Chris and Matt. It’s nice to hear some intellectual discussion on religion that doesn’t disappear up it’s own mystic arse! (Cough Jordan Peterson cough)

Christopher Kavanagh

We liked the last one a lot!

Christopher Kavanagh

You won! Thanks!

Christine Jenkins

Thanks for this- I have found it really interesting and am especially looking forward to hearing how you look at research papers… and assess their validity and importance. It seems crucial that we can all do this somewhat well , when so much information is available on such a variety of topics we have no background in. Thanks for this valuable addition.

Christopher Kavanagh

I think there is something to some of the parallels but that they can also be overstated. John McWhorter has some interesting ideas but I think in general he pushes things a bit too far.

sebcatemis

This was so good! I hope you keep doing them. I'm really interested in why people believe the things they do and also why they stop believing, I think because of my own experience of growing up in a fundamentalist religion (Southern Baptist) and then losing faith at a young age. I was also wondering what you think about this idea I see pop up in the heterodox sphere that "wokeism" has gained traction because people are looking to fill a god/religion shaped hole? And now John McWhorter has a book coming out about his idea that wokeism or anti-racism is a religion. I kind of want to read it even though I think it will annoy me because I am really curious to see how he justifies it.

Samantha Rae

lmao yes you paid for this

elcid

Excellent! Name suggestions: -Stats and tatts. -The gentle art of polishing. -Welcome to… “yes, you paid for this!” All a bit tongue in cheek, except maybe stats and tatts. Honestly love your work Matt and Chris. Such a refreshing change from all the tripe that’s out there. G’day from Perth.

Arabella Holzapfel

(I meant to include the following in my original message but didn't know the enter key would, you know, enter it.) Regarding a name for the series, it's not very clever but how about "Decoding Academia"?

Arabella Holzapfel

Excellent - I'm not among those who requested this, but now that I've listened, I'm really glad that it was asked for and that you both have responded so generously!

Christopher Kavanagh

Lovely message! Thank you so much for sharing!

Sian Gibby

Excellent. I was going to listen while I got ready to go to the office, but it was too enthralling. If this had been a book I'd say I couldn't put it down. First off, the dysphoric religious rituals reminds me of research my boss has done on the Catholic practice of the Giglio Feast in tribute to San Paolino where groups of men hoist heavy religious floats on their collective backs and parade them through the streets; the men develop over the years enormous calluses on one of their shoulders from years of this ritual performance, which is onerous in the extreme. Really ugly calluses, but they of course signal a specific dedication and piety (a bit like forehead calluses for Muslim men, though these ones can be quite grotesque). And these are not priests. Here in NYC they are regular guys, Vinnie and Mark and Bob, etc. Another reason this conversation interested me is that I am a convert to Judaism who became a Jew not to marry a Jew (I'm divorced, and my ex husband was a Presbyterian) but for religious reasons and in my thirties. Judaism being in the fairly complex position of being traditionally despised and persecuted but also seeing itself as "set apart" (SUCH a problematic self-designation), so the taking oneself out of the mainstream has the dual nature of exalting as well as electing to be among the despised. The last reason I loved this discussion is that I've always been fascinated by whatever is the connection between brain chemistry and religious experience. I am a religious person and am fully aware that those sensations I and many others have are chemical events in my brain and nervous system; and I want to know more about how that works and, something you maybe touched on here, if there's some evolutionary function. Cavemen being afraid of roaming tigers in the night might be related to why I light Hanukkah candles? Or maybe not? Thanks for this, decoders. Kol tuv, all the best to you.

Nina Davies

Thanks for that! I enjoyed it. It is fascinating that Science Fiction never reaches beyond the usual human story telling patterns and the characters never have a way of existing that isn't socially human. We can't create drama and meaning outside those frames of reference. Which is why aliens always end up looking very socially and politically 'primitive' however scientifically 'advanced'.

Christopher Kavanagh

No particular sources to recommend but if you look into any scholarship on Buddhism (as opposed to instruction orientated materials from Western Buddhist groups) you will quickly find details about the six realms of rebirth that includes god and demigod realms. There are plenty of traditional Buddhist stories about the Buddha interacting with gods too. People can and do interpret these traditions in ways that they become metaphorical and they were always presented as consistent with no-self doctrine but those are somewhat different issues. You can interpret Buddhism to lack gods, but they are still there, historically in the doctrinal material.

YellowDreams

Hey Chris can you give me some sources on your claims about rebirth in traditional bhudism? I’ve recently been studying this and admittedly some of my info is second hand from my dad that has studied the texts. But my understanding is that rebirth is in the context of not self (anatta) which cannot be described in the way you did with the idea of gods. I could be wrong so would love to hear why you think that and what your understanding of rebirth I’m bhudism is. For more this talk by Patrick kearney which is third part of three about anatta. He talks about rebirth in a traditional bhudism context and it isn’t about gods and it lines up with my dad’s understanding of the texts and someone who studies the original texts and commentaries. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/psxlgaapli46b9i/AABWfJrTZB06njvaNO4gMpDsa?dl=0&preview=2019_03_24+_+Heart-Insight+_+Anatta03.mp3

Lucy

This was great! Very interesting!

Guruspod 2

Thanks for listening! Our goal is to make more (hopefully) interesting academiky stuff available for Patreons. It won’t take long to exhaust our specialisations, but I think the idea of a kind of journal club would be really fun.