Decoding The Gurus patreon

Supplementary Material: Cringe Immunity and Alternative Ethics

🕑 Added 2024-03-06 04:32:33 +0000 UTC

Comments

Sonje Finnestad

I agree with you. I'm not sure I need to live in "squalor and poverty" but I do think there's a problem if I have a lot more than I need when so many have so much less than they need. (I say that while affirming that what we need is structural change.) I struggle with knowing where to draw the line but some things are pretty clearly over the line!

Ema Corro

Tbh that was my first response, until you said how many Patreon members they have. It had not even ocurred to me that people could make so much money out of promoting left wing ideas until I heard this episode and the one with the guy interviewing the pirate. I guess that was pretty naive.

Christopher Kavanagh

The typical defence is to 1) post the cartoon of the guy popping out of the well, as if that means all profiteering is legitimate or 2) cast it as the person is demanding all socialists live in squalor and poverty.

Ema Corro

I would say I am anti-capitalist and I totally agree with you that shilling supplements and living in mansions is hypocritical. Ive known so many activists who work on these causes for free, in a few cases lost their homes or even their lives. These guys who make a fortune just spouting leftist rhetoric annoy me.

Monica B.

I like this split/new format, and it is the thing that finally got me to join over here : ) Thanks for your work—it really helps me parse out how I want to talk to and debate other people, hopefully in a way that is thoughtful and not like a total weirdo like some of the gurus hahaha, and I think overall I’ve become a more discerning listener and critic (even to people whose work and ideas I am a fan of) from you all.

Mark K

Captains Log: Supplementary. The gurusphere appears to contain no intelligent life. Fire photon torpedoes and repurpose their carbon into KFC (Klingon Fried Chicken)

Peter

Okay, I think I figured it out. It might be a bug in Patreon's Android app. For all my other memberships, I can click the three dots in the upper right to get an RSS link, but not for this one 🤷 However, if I go to patreon.com in the browser and click on "my membership", there's an option to generate an RSS link for the podcast, so we're all good 🙏

Christopher Kavanagh

You should be able to generate an RSS link and import to most podcast apps. That’s what I do and the feed automatically updates with any audio released here.

Peter

I love the new format! And like others, it convinced me to sign up. What are your thoughts on enabling the Audio RSS link feature on Patreon so we can listen in the podcast app of our choosing? All the other podcasts I subscribe to have it enabled, so I was wondering if it's intentional that you have it disabled, or if that's just an oversight.

Christopher Kavanagh

Merci!

Stuart Ecob

I think the move to seperate episodes for the intros is great!

Matt

Really enjoyed Matt's reaction to Some More News. I also watch it, it is funny, and good. But, you definitely benefit from the context and the visual medium... I have also shown a friend and have them react similarly.

Jonathan Southern

Name suggestion: "Sucked Sinks" Not sure exactly what it means, but there's a pun in there somewhere

Trees

I'll take your word for the knowledge and beliefs of those podcasters. I haven't followed them. Advertising something you think is bullshit is unethical, no argument from me on that. Maybe I misunderstood your previous comment about Conan O'Brien vs BTB. I took it as saying that you wouldn't think it odd for Conan to advertise AG1 because he's already an unethical sellout. Is that incorrect? Perhaps a question with less Conan baggage: suppose a random mountaineering podcast does a read for AG1 because the host thinks it tastes good and adaptogens are cool. Is that unethical?

Mindbender

I think the episodes should be called “extra credit”

Emma

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/qhmtUnHx12nF9V6F/?mibextid=oFDknk

Chrizzy

I too happen to enjoy the "guru gossip" a lot. So separating it from the bread&butter decodings to shorten the latter's intros makes sense. Wouldn't mind if you'd still keep a treat or two in those main episodes as well, but maybe limited to 5-10min max. One of you would need to run a timer on this though, since we all know you're not exactly great when it comes to keeping things short naturally 😉

Sonje Finnestad

Yeah, it pushed me over the edge, too.

Christopher Kavanagh

Alcohol is a known quantity when it comes to damage. Very few people, especially in our audience, would be unaware it has significant drawbacks. If you advertised for whisky, you would be advertising for something that is a physically damaging substance that can be addictive... but also gets you drunk and can be very enjoyable. That's the tradeoff with alcohol. In any case, we have not actually promoted any whiskey product, it was just a tongue-in-cheek suggestion because Matt would like free access to nice Whiskey. With AG1, I find it rather unlikely that SMN or BTB do not know they are promoting an overpriced supplement with 'junk science'. I would imagine that even if they were naive, given the sie of their audience and its lean, they would quickly receive information about the product/claims. Indeed, isn't that supposed to be part of the joke in their delivery? Katie one of the hosts response to me on Twitter did not emphasise that they did not know about the product and the criticisms, but rather that they made ad choices based on the large staff they have to support.

Linda Sears

Yes, too much alcohol is bad for sleeping well. I was just being silly here.

Pete Hollitscher

Not that you asked, but I think this change in format is a great one … hope you keep going with it!

Trees

Sorry for sea lioning

Trees

And just to clarify, I totally agree that advertising it when you know it's bullshit is unethical. It's lying. I just don't have a strong expectation of podcasters outside the health and wellness arena to know that. Also someone like Huberman should know better, even if he doesn't.

Trees

Alcohol is actually bad for your sleep.

Trees

Be fair, AG1 is based on junk science 😊. But if you look at actual harm to the consumer, I'm pretty sure the harm of alcohol exceeds that of AG1. And if it's the gap in the audience's knowledge of the product's harm and its actual harm, then alcohol is still worse. There's evidence that alcohol might be unhealthy even consumed in low doses. Certainly popular views on it in many countries greatly underestimate its harm, especially given all the junk science claiming that red wine prevents heart disease and what not.

Linda Sears

Both mattresses and whiskey can help you 😴.

Emma

I used to listen to 'sounds like a cult' and I was a bit disconcerted when they started advertising some vitamin drink. I'm pretty sure it was AG1. Anyway I didn't find it hypocritical per se but maybe just a bit off brand. And a bit off putting.

Christopher Kavanagh

We are just trying to survive late stage capitalism.

Chomagerider

Respect for this hyper capitalistic marketing move. Making these intros separate episodes and putting half of them behind the Patreon paywall finally pushed me over the edge to become a paid member. If that's not a predatory marketing tactic, I don't know what is. I wish you had the ethics of someone like... say... a Hubermann :P Please make more of these. I've come to enjoy the intros almost more than the actual decodings over time.

Christopher Kavanagh

One is based on pseudoscience, the other two are known quantities.

Christopher Kavanagh

It’s a YouTube channel

Misselenaus

Right?!

Artemis Green

Ok I take back my earlier comment that it should be 'Hitchhiker's Guide to the Guruverse'. Come on guys - it *has* to be ChatDtG...

Artemis Green

Ooooh - what if you did it on a Monday or a Wednesday - and then it could be called 'Monday Midwittery' or 'Midweek Midwittery'. I am listening again and lost in the sensemaking.

Artemis Green

Luki I go back and forth on whether he knows what he's doing, or whether he's wilfully blind to it - but I think perhaps the latter. Either way it's scurrilous.

Christopher McLaughlin

This thesis was referred to in a video titled A Psychological Breakdown of a Rap Song on Jordan Peterson’s YouTube channel. It’s a video extolling the virtues of Canadian antiwoke rapper Tom Walker! Peterson says the study found: The best predictor of being a left-wing authoritarian is not being verbally intelligent and that is “the variable most associated with intelligence that I had ever seen including grades.” Now that’s a crazy claim, but he’s also lying about what’s in the thesis. He is claiming “PC Authoritarians” are left-wing, when in the thesis they are clearly right-wing!

Linda Sears

I vehemently disagree with Chris being an Eeyore. He is far too energetic.

Linda Sears

My guess is they are hoping capitalism will collapse soon because it is unsustainable? I think it also just refers to modern day capitalism.

Linda Sears

What Would Gurus Do?

Trees

"everyone has different ethical lines". That's where I'm disagreeing. I don't see how advertising an overpriced multivitamin is less ethical than advertising whisky or mattresses.

Pete

Sorry - boring q. was that Joe Rogan adjacent pod called Too Lazy to Try"? can't seen to find it.

Christopher McLaughlin

Chris and Matt have we got a real barnburner of a Decoding Academia for you! Jordan Peterson was the academic advisor on his protege Christine Brophy’s masters thesis: Political Correctness: Social-Fiscal Liberalism and Left Wing Authoritarianism. She and Jordan describe their findings to Lauren Southern in a YouTube video titled Where Do SJWs Come From? It gets real weird, real quick, and it seems to a layman like myself that what they say in the video obfuscates their findings in the paper. For example, in the thesis “PC Authoritarians” seems to refer to social conservatives, but in the video they lead Southern to believe it means the radical left? I’m really hoping you guys can shed some light on this.

Erik Fast

I’ve never understood the term “late-stage capitalism”. How do we know we’re in the late stage of capitalism? What if capitalism continues for 10000 years? Seems like a quasi-religious eschatological concept to me.

Adam Sher

Copilot convinced me they’re the same person. “Hello, this is Copilot. I’m an AI companion that can help you with various tasks and topics. 😊 According to my web search, John Vervaeke and Paul Bloom have not been seen together in any public events or media appearances. They are both prominent scholars in the fields of cognitive science and psychology”

Christopher Kavanagh

They are in the same department.

Rob W

I appreciate the discussion about the advertising on Behind the Bastards and Some More News. I actually like a lot of the material from them - but have listened to less and less recently as the advertising seems to get more intrusive with time.

Sonje Finnestad

I have always enjoyed the introductory material. I vote for more of these!

Tim Tripp

Is Brett stalking Elon? Our saviour. God help us.

Christopher Kavanagh

Depends on the podcast. I wouldn’t find it odd for Conan O’Brien to do it. I would find it jarring with Conspirituality or Knowledge Fight… and I do find it somewhat contradictory with BTB or SMN. But y’know everyone has different ethical lines.

Trees

I agree with the charge of hypocrisy. I just mean I wouldn't think much of it if a random podcast started advertising AG1. Revolutions for example.

Christopher Kavanagh

You don’t have to be morally outraged to find the shilling of ineffective and overpriced supplements somewhat contradictory of an anti capitalist political worldview. We are supposed to be the soulless neoliberal shills yet we think it’s sketchy to promote. As for Neutonic, if you’ve bought into the viral marketing sensation that’s sweeping the manosphere… that’s on you 😉. Though at least there you are getting the sweet caffeine!

Trees

Us? The lulz have just gotten better.

Trees

I ordered a case of Neutonic on a whim, and now I can't quite remember what gave me the idea... I don't understand the moral outrage over AG1. Yes, it is overpriced bullshit. So are most of the items we consume. It's not harmful, and it doesn't make strong enough claims that it would prevent people from seeking necessary treatment, so I wouldn't call it snake oil.

Adam Sher

John Vervaeke and Paul Bloom sound so similar. Has anyone seen them in tue same room at the same time?

Sean Power

Could you interview Lex Friedman even more softly than he does Tucker? Then, perhaps, you could get Putin to interview You more softly again, eg, Putin: “Cake. What kind of cake do you like?” Etc

Hyena Hell

“Supplementary material” episode should be called “the waffle House” although not sure, they have those outside of the states!

Ymirsdreams

This is a down vote for the title 'Thick Short Stacks'.

LaserRange

TBH: not fussed either way. There are always time stamps to skip ahead if I want . Whatever works for you lads and keeps you motivated to deliver the content is my vote.

Cesare, But Def Not A Borgia

Good to know. Thanks.

Christopher McLaughlin

Lets create a tiered system, like Batman villains, and spend time proportional to the guru’s power level. Lowest Tier - JP Sears/Baby Face, Mikhaila Peterson/Harley Quinn, Douglas Murray/Calendar Man, Gad Saad/Man Bat, Dave Rubin/Kite King, Konstantin Kisin/Tweedledee, Francis/Tweedledum Mid Tier - Jordan Hall/The Penguin, Naseem Talib/Killer Croc, Heather Heying/Talia al Ghul, Andrew Huberman/Scarecrow, Scott Adams/Mr. Zsasz Top Teir - Eric Weinstein/The Riddler, Brett Weinstein/Ra’s al Ghul, Sam Harris/Catwoman, Joe Rogan/Two Face, Jordan Peterson/The Joker Heroes - Chris/Batman, Matt/Robin

Brainbiter

Recoding the Gurus

Brainbiter

That’s why, among the fun, this podcast serves an important function , shining a light on Lexy boy’s daddy issues as it’s too easy for him get a free pass with his schtick but having non partisan non Americans call it out in funny yet no bullshit way is incredibly useful ( but he really really is terrible….)

Roland Weber

Like many others, I think it's an improvement to put the off-topic banter into separate episodes. As for a title... News from the Gurosphere Gurosphere Mosaic

Dina Crosta

A friend and I used to gossip about people in our work sphere and we would always text each other ahead of time and say - “are you up for a chin wag?” Perhaps chin wag would be not so American? I believe she came from English stock.

Exai

Literary types have been finding new ways of calling irony dead and reactionary every decade or so for the last 30-50 years, but the bit on ad reads and performative irony is basically edging towards critical theory 101, more recently Fisher & Žižek (future victim?): "If our concept of ideology remains the classic one in which the illusion is located in knowledge, then today’s society must appear post-ideological: the prevailing ideology is that of cynicism; people no longer believe in ideological truth; they do not take ideological propositions seriously. The fundamental level of ideology, however, is not of an illusion masking the real state of things but that of an (unconscious) fantasy structuring our social reality itself. And at this level, we are of course far from being a post-ideological society. Cynical distance is just one way … to blind ourselves to the structuring power of ideological fantasy: even if we do not take things seriously, even if we keep an ironical distance, we are still doing them." (Žižek, Sublime Object of Ideology 1989; also almost every other book)

Misselenaus

I feel like it's obvious that these episodes should be called "ChatDtG" Your banter and playing random snippets are my favorite part of your podcast, so I'm here for this! I'll listen to the decoding eps too, but I have to be in a more analytic mindset for those. Love the new format!

Exai

Indulgent Duologuing?!

JustTheWorstEver

Chris referencing Some More News, Behind the Bastards AND 2 Lazy 2 Try in one episode? Those are some of the paradigms I'm constantly running each week. My worlds are slowly merging into one singularity. Can an appearance by RM Brown be far off? The fact that I'm even suggesting this is stunning! Real talk tho: I do respect Cody, Katy and Robert Evans for the depth of their research and analysis on every single topic they cover (in the case of Some more News, their references are provided in the description of their videos and it's always a gigantic 10 page google doc full of relevant links). However, their style of presentation and the tone of their delivery are a big turnoff and keeps me from succumbing completely to their leftist charms, even though I think I'm on the same side. I would also say this about the channel Renegade Cut. I basically realized what side of the Generation/Politics gap I was on while listening to a Behind the Bastards episode about Dave Rubin. I was salivating for some in-depth deconstruction of his backstory (again!) but could not make it past the usage of the phrase "your whiteness is problematic" in EARNEST by the young guest. Had to bail. I'm too old for this shit, ha ha. I would recommend Robert Evans' free audiobook called "The War on Everything" for anyone who wants an eye-opening history of the fascist right in America.

lun

He is not being naive, he knows very well what he is doing.

Ben D

I like the idea of splitting out the banter and the actual decoding. Having a more streamlined decoding makes the episode more shareable to non-subscribers. For example, my girlfriend has no idea who Jordan Peterson or the Weinsteins are, but listens to Huberman occasionally. She would be more likely to listen to a trimmed-down decoding episode that gets right to the point rather than a bunch of banter about people she has never heard of followed by the actual decoding. I also like that separating the episodes could lead to a stronger distinction between banter/laughing at insane things the gurus do and a more even-handed and academic dissection of content, as another commenter suggested.

Julie

I really like this idea! Can’t get enough of the bantering or the decoding. Good idea guys. Remember, you’re only just two men ……

Julie

Stunningly Plausible is an excellent name. It’s got my vote!!

Tasty3141

I was SO GLAD to hear Behind the Bastards and Some More News called out for their advertising. I've posted on their reddits before about this exact isssue and got mostly people defending them or ignoring the point with tangents about late stage capitalism like you identified. Anybody would think the choice was between NO advertisers and Better Help or AG1 or whatever obvious shady companies. The truth is they could definitely get advertisers who sell normal products with no ethical issues--perhaps even products that relate to their podcasts in some way--but instead they are clearly choosing the adveertisers who PAY THE MOST. This is what they constantly criticize the rich businessmen for doing. Caring only about money. Ironically many businessmen actually do care about their customers unlike the roster of scams these youtube advertising networks promote.

Ymirsdreams

Guru Curious?

Ymirsdreams

Brand had 'Trews ('true news'), so maybe 'Grews'? Or 'Paradigm 91'? 'There is no glass'? 'Stunningly Plausible?' 'The Collective Maybe-Conscious?' 'Crystalline Structures'? 'Sam Harassment'? 'Dharma-Drama'? 'Guru Encrypting'?

Josh Lemer

Hard to really imagine who the audience is who after all these years is still like "ya honestly I wanna listen to more of this Brett Weinstein guy"

Maarten Wesselius

Best one. Nice and short and fun.

Artemis Green

Omg this one! This one!

Artemis Green

Lol Lex on Navalny - this is next level naïveté even for Lex. Sure Lex - the enemies of the puffy-faced warmonger with the fragile ego just happen to all share an unfortunate clumsiness when standing near hotel windows...

Artemis Green

Bite-sized Banter? Decrypting the Discourse? Or Deciphering the Discourse, Discussing the Discourse, Digesting the Discourse, or plain old Decoding the Discourse. Explaining the Ephemeral? Or Ephemeral Exegesis, Exposing the Ephemeral.

Linda Sears

A Hitchhiker’s Guide through the Guruverse.

James Pulver

I might be the only one, but as I listen on a podcast app rather than YouTube / patreon app, I don't really care how long an episode is. Many podcasts I listen to have segments so I don't think trying to get rid of those by making different kinds of episodes is an improvement, rather it's just different. I am not saying don't do it, just don't take extra effort to do so IMO. I actually find your current release pace hard to keep up with. One or two a month 2-3 hour episodes actually let me interspersed other pods sometimes lol. Just Fwiw.

Linda Sears

This Week in Gurometry?

Robert Andrews

On the AG1 thing, I think that Chris Williamson's mate did a takedown of AG1 pointing out how it was obviously crap, but he also said that AG1 uses the promo codes to work out where the main sources of revenue come from. I assume, as you say, that they don't care how the ads are read and are more interested in the bottom line. The same is probably true of many of the podcasters who promote it. Whether they know or care about it being garbage, if the cheques come rolling in (or whatever the digital equivalent is these days) they are more likely to promote it the way that benefits both the podcasters and the AG1 company. On that point, I am glad that you turned them down. Funny that Matt either doesn't remember or didn't know AG1 had contacted DtG. I remember that Chris made veiled references to it.

Emma

Wow AG1 is really aggressively going after the podcast market! If you started to promote it I'd have barely any podcasts left that don't feature adds for green juice. I might even give in to the brainwashing and buy it.

Randy

Love the banter. For names: Advanced Gurology? Bonus Tracks or Trax? Guru Apocrypha? Some crazy, fake Australian word like Whoozeewuzzah?

mobitobi

Waffle House 🧇

Ben Holland

‘Cringewatch’ like Crimewatch, but for cringe…

Níall Faughnan

I tend to agree that supplementary materials isn't great as a non-academic. 'This Week in Spiralling Gurus', kinda like a news update

Ben Holland

like the name too, but 2 cents suggestions: Crackpot Craic, Barmpot Banter, Guru Gossip, or Guru Spherical

Ben Holland

Love it. Works to keep the full decoding focused, and I like a separate episode for updates on previous fools.

Christopher Kavanagh

It seems non-academics might not get the Supplementary Materials allusion so yeah we might need something else but water cooler is too American for me!

Christopher Kavanagh

There still will be banter! Just more on topic!

Alex A

I like the less guru-focused discussions like this episode. May as well be standalone! Regarding the naming, maybe “Water Cooler Talk” is more apt than “Supplementary Materials”. While I appreciate the academic allusion, the latter feels like it has to be connected to something else (a main document or episode) to make sense. My 2 pence!

Cesare, But Def Not A Borgia

Aww. No biggie, but the banter helps me not be quite as distraught hearing the decodings.

Maarten Wesselius

Seems like a good idea. Current format is also fine with me though.

Gareth Daniels

I totally agree with John! So, instead of supplementary materials what about 'His Dark Materials' (if Phillip Pullman is cool with it) afterall is this not an expose of the Dark Arts. Maybe 'Their Dark Materials'...

Robert Andrews

Nice! Love the waffly banter at the beginning. The decodings and interviews are always good, but we really want to hear about your reactions to the latest wacky escapades of the gurus.