Decoding The Gurus
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Discussion with Dan Saltman on Dr. K & Guru Tier List
🕑 Added 2024-09-27 01:00:03 +0000 UTCHi everyone,
Following the Dr. K episode, Destiny's co-host, a long-term critic of Dr. K, suggested a chat on stream about the episode/issues identified. We recorded that a few days ago and ended up spending quite a bit of time on the Gurometer and the Guru Tier list we made and Destiny's placement on it, along with more discussion about the issues around the DDoS kid (the controversy in which Destiny discussed the ethics of killing someone preventing you from working).
The discussion gets quite into the weeds on these issues (pretty standard for streamer chats) and as you might anticipate from Destiny's co-host, it involves some edgy topics, so might not be to everyone's tastes.
Still, I (Chris) enjoyed the discussion and found Dan's POV interesting and some of you might too so am sharing the recording here.
Alternatively, if you do not like streamers and unstructured chats then this might be one to avoid.
Comments
JJ
I paused to quit and read the comments at about the same time as you đ€Ł Can't stand this dude, so aggressive for no reason. I really enjoyed destiny being on and hope to see him more. Dan just feels kind of rude for rudeness sake.
Quietscheentchen
But it is funny
Roland Weber
Still haven't listened to it, because I was waiting for the audio. Never mind, I'll get around to playing the video.
Charlie Friedberg
I have to agree with Dan. Putting destiny next to hasan seems unfair
Elliot Nial
We got Chris / Destiny henchman crossover before Half-Life 3.
Elliot Nial
Yeh, but you would also need to have it go to -5, probably.
Elliot Nial
Haha yeh it was like seeing someone get mad at you for pulling up their wife/husband.
Alex Weschler
Liking Dan is my most contrarian take
Mike M
I think his idea of a positive category would be "Person is named Destiny" and count for 100 points.
Jason Trock
Dan is annoyingly hard to listen to.
Ben Godek
This guy is really struggling to understand that his initial assumptions might have been a little off.
Ben Godek
You could grade the gurus on âability to answer a question straightforwardlyâ, that would work.
ketracel-white
Ooo! That's a good one. It should be!
ketracel-white
I used to listen to/watch Destiny quite a bit back around 2020-2021 and I never liked Dan.. I always tuned out whenever he came on stream to offer his very cool and totally relatable tech-millionaire takes.
Vee
I'll never click with that whole mentality of having a bigger following/channel is an automatically good thing. The way some of these guys talk about people with "no following" almost like it's a moral failing, always rubs be the wrong way. Other than that, I enjoyed the chat. He's obviously just a bit overly defensive of his guy. But it's fun watching someone somewhat new to dtg try to wrap their head around it lol.
Ryan Booker
* it was interesting and funny. Thanks for the posting it. :)
Ryan Booker
Is Performatively Obtuse on the gurometer?
Filip Palla
2+ hours of Destiny fanboy loosing his mind over fun tierlist.
Ty Black
So much bs here because Dan hasn't actually listened to the episodes and he's trying to hold you to some "standard" - he doesn't know what the standard is. What an asshat.
Magnus
I canât believe he takes this tier list so seriously lol
332
Yeah, very messy defense. "He would never actually do it" morphed into "If he did it, under these hypothetical constraints, it would be justifiable!" Ok, sure, maybe? But Destiny was under *none* of these constraints when this was happening, so what is even the point?
332
So basically Dan saw a meme tierlist on the Destiny subreddit posted by some upset Destiny simp, spent zero time understanding what the podcast or scoring is about or what that tierlist actually is, and blindly argues about the scoring he does not understand for hours.
Anne Stephens
Lo-Salt High K Please advise...
Linda Sears
This was actually kind of fun. My favorite part was when Chris introduced a Scooby Doo type scenario as a way to scare off the DDos kid.
David Hohle
Maybe influence gets ranked 1-2 in .1 or .05 increments as a multiplier of the total score.
Sam
Love Dan
Tomek KrzesiĆski
Also, very last point, because I imagine you don't want to drag this discussion for too long. Destiny also defends another hypothetical - that in some circumstances it is justifiable to threaten to leak nudes of a former sexual partner. Now, this is something one could also argue is performative edgy debate bro talk, right? Except, as I'm sure you know, this is something that he did actually do not that long ago and publicly. He is absolutely capable of vile acts.
Tomek KrzesiĆski
People who are uncompletely unserious about their intention don't get a permit for a gun. I understand the heuristic of lowering the probability of truthfulness when it comes from the mouth of an edgy streamer, but, for reasons I can only guess, you're decreasing it to 0% (or close to it). For not just an edgy streamer, but a person who you don't know personally, who is very likely a sociopath, with a history of vindictive behavior, who prides himself on truthfulness regardless of optics and who has now spent years saying he's actually being serious. I encourage you to rewatch the segment in the Right to Reply where he says his feelings are genuine. You and Matt are incredulous, but there's nothing performative about his answer. He's not trying to be edgy. He's calmly and sincerely saying yes, this is what I believe and I was not just emotional at the time. Even putting that aside, let's assume, despite spending his entire career valuing raw honesty, you managed to identify the one aspect of his life that he has consistently ,over a decade , uncharacteristically tried to embellish. He is still advocating for murder. You have debated his fans who have copied his view verbatim. I just don't see the humor. I can see a sense of irony given it's Decoding the Gurus, but I just don't it funny.
George
Enjoyed listening but this was such a pointless conversation haha. The TLDR is man is annoyed his friend is criticised by arbitrary list.
George
Funny stuff. Think you could summarise Chris's defence as 'it's really not that big of a deal'. Arguing about what position his mate is on the tier is like arguing where you are on Santa's Naught and Nice list
Kyle
I don't know Dan's content much. I've seen some of the anything else podcast with Destiny, and found him annoying. I've found this conversation similarly annoying, even if I think he had a point about the tier list, it was just....yeah annoying. And I wonder if Matt felt a glitch in the Mattrix when Chris threw him under the bus at the end there đ€ đł đ€Ł
Alex H
Art.
Password1234!
All people will die, largest collateral damage possible, robots will take over, save only the terrorists.
Ymirsdreams
If there's an AI communicating with paperclips and one of them sneaks into it's IP address and steals all of it's large people standing in front of trams, how many ponds do I need to wade through with my new shoes on to rescue a drowning terrorist with a ticking time bomb?
Kyle
Under Dan's logic. If society goes fully clean energy based. Coal miners are justified in murdering scientists and politicians lol. FFS.
Alex H
Also, god damn does he go on about the tier list. The funniest and best response is to drop Destiny to the lowest tier and add Dan next to him. đ
Alex H
The killing the DDOS kid part was quite irritating. Both Dan and Destiny go off into the stratosphere with hypotheticals but can't acknowledge that, in the actual scenario that happend, suggesting murder is totally unhinged. I admired your unwillingness to avoid getting sucked in to the hypotheticals for so long. When he mentioned Singer's drowning children i almost screamed with exasperation!
Dan the benevolent patron
But yeah the rape analogy is spurious
Dan the benevolent patron
tl;dr đ
Jonathan Southern
Immediate response - this guy is a sexist arrogant prick
Ty Black
Ugggghhhhh I don't like this guy at allllll. Kudos to you for keeping your cool.
Christopher Kavanagh
Doesnât your quote just say he got a gun permit around that time? I trust Destinyâs account that he thought about it and it was in the calculus about getting a firearm but I would treat that as serious as most internet commentators making similar statements. 99.9% of the time itâs internet bluster.
Tomek KrzesiĆski
Youâve watched enough of his content to know that, to his credit, his brand is also being honest to a fault, even when, optically, itâs a disaster. Are you saying heâs lying when he says he bought a gun during that time? Or would you still consider that acting out a fantasy? Keep in mind, he was short on money and cut off from his only source of income.
Tom Kerwin
Is it just me, or does Dan just repeat himself over and over and over? YES WE HEARD THE FIRST TIME, YOU WANT OFFSET FACTORS IN THE GUROMETER
Christopher Kavanagh
Destiny's entire brand is being an edgy streamer and he is infamous for tripling down on controversial positions. Examining the DDoS kid statements without consideration of this context is misleading. Do I think he fantasized about killing the kid, yes certainly. Do I think he was close to carrying out an assassination based on his comments? No. The amusement in the situation for me comes from the fact that Destiny is STILL attempting to publicly justify his stance despite how counterproductive it is to do so. He's like the scorpion in that parable, his nature is to defend and debate his takes even when he really should just drop them.
Robert JaĆŒdĆŒewski
Tier lists are never super serious, and the episode made it clear its just a bit of fun. I would not assume that the tier list detached from the podcast has much power - just a placement without the thought process behind it tells you pretty much nothing, especially when you don't know what DtG means by gurus. I would not curate content towards a group that will not listen to a single episode. Offsetting the gurometer by including positive characteristics would make sense if it was indeed a "total douchebag" scale, but it is not. Whether one likes or dislikes the (potential) guru is a separate thing and I would not muddy the scale by adding a qualitative judgement. I think Dan might not have fully understood what the scale measures, he did say he hasn't listened to the podcast. I am generally a fan of Destiny but the defence of killing the DDOS kid is not worth commenting on, Destiny makes an argument that easy to parrot but obviously is not defensible in the real world ie where there's alternative sources of income. If everyone held his position this would lead to horrible outcomes for everyone.
Par
@Chris after having just finished listening to it Iâd suggest not converting to audio for the rss podcast feed. The conversation was rather tedious. Alternatively, maybe pick out a couple of the most salient points from Dan and discuss with Matt
AzurePropagation
Dan has this tendency to take a first level moral principle analysis and ram it into his conversation partner with no regard for subtlety. His whole âbut you should be more responsible and be less vibes based for the greater goodâ certainly has merits, but it is just seems so insane when applied to something as trivial as a tierlist. This is why he and Steven get along so well. He is obstinately able to take a principle and drive the moral weight of it through. Itâs unambiguous and uncompromising. The opposite of snakey. Like - how can you argue âitâs just a little funâ when âpeople will get a mistaken assumption and you can do betterâ is being beaten into you over and over? Itâs Singer-esque in its condemnation, but surgically applied to whatever heâs arguing. It gets irritating and hard to listen to after a while, and is why his Dr. K comments mostly land badly. Dr K did some sussy shit, but instead of discussing the point by point evidence, he just goes for the utilitarian jugular every time
Par
I can listen at 2x with the screen locked đ€·ââïž
David Noble
do I detect a Destiny fan? :)
Claudia
I enjoyed that in a weird way, even though streamers and especially Destiny really grate on my nerves. Dan not getting what "a podcast", DtG and the Gurometer are all about and trying to give advice (is that what it was?) on how to appeal to a larger audience...? I agree with Chris, I don't like hypothetical scenarios much, where you add constraints at every turn: "But what if...?" And creating a thought experiment where a) someone squeezes the life out of you (not literally, but in a roundabout way) and b) your only option of survival is killing them, is just stupid and uninteresting. In that case it would be self defense and not an ethical question at all, right? What's the point? Or was it a lot more serious actually, and this is just downplaying it now? I don't get this whole thing... I particularly liked the dig at Sam Harris, who probably won't do his research before entering into a collaboration with Destiny. That would indeed be potentially funny to watch...
Amy
This guy is such a sycophant. And all of his hypothetical scenarios to justify murder conveniently only involve adults.
Tomek KrzesiĆski
I agree, rape is not a perfect analogy and does not match the motive here. Yes, it's meant as a rhetorical device meant to evoke a reaction. But it's not disanalogous in the sense that you have a person who is explicitly doubling down on the intent and validity of a horrific act, disclosing steps he's made to put that plan into effect, while given endless opportunities to admit it's hyperbole and this is met with consistent denial from the people listening. It's fascinating to see, like a cautionary tale out of a book. This is not to say anything anyone consistently says should be treated with gravity, but I think you have to agree there comes a point where you have to take words at face value. When the person says: "I was so close, I had his fucking address, I had streets mapped out, and I had evâyou have no fucking idea, that's when I first started to get an interest in owning a weapon, I got a permit to own a gun and everything." then we're LONG past the point where we're talking about hyperbole. At that point, 'trolling' was a station we passed ages ago. As for this not being downplayed - in the Right to Reply, when Chris asked Destiny whether it was a heat of the moment thing, Destiny said no, Chris burst out laughing. If doubling down doesn't matter - why even ask the question? If it's all a joke then his fans defending his right to murder don't seem to be in on it - and here finding the humor in the situation might be a bit more difficult.
Mike Nelson
If there are two people I never want to hear about again, it is Dr. K and Destiny, so I'll have to pass on this.
James P.
Coaches coaching coaches!
Linda Sears
Sorry, Mike and Will. I confused you two in my reply.
Password1234!
I believe your argument has a few weak points. First, comparing aggravated murder to rape is a false equivalence. While both crimes are serious, the motives and circumstances surrounding them are vastly different. In Destiny's case, he was motived by the sense his life had been destroyed, while rape often involves a desire for power and control. These distinctions matter when discussing the intent and psychological factors behind the crimes. Using rape as a rhetorical device evokes an emotional response, but it may distract from the actual behaviours and ethical concerns at hand. Moreover, while I haven't seen direct data on the thresholds between planning and engaging in the different offences, I would expect a higher barrier to acting on violent revenge than on committing rape. This assumption aligns with the available prevalence statistics: rape in Australia in 2020 was estimated at around 800 per 100,000 people, compared to 0.83 per 100,000 for murder. As for the claim that Destiny was "looking at escape routes," unless he explicitly stated that he mapped them out, this interpretation seems overstated. If you're referring to the DDoS kidâs house being located, that's concerning, but not necessarily equivalent in severity to plotting an actual escape route. That said, we do agree on the gravity of acquiring a gun permit during this time. Still, I donât recall Chris or Matt downplaying Destinyâs behaviour regarding his planning or preparation for murder. Rather, their critique focuses on Destinyâs argument that killing the DDoS kid could be ethically justifiable, with which they strongly disagree. They argue against the ethical justification rather than dismissing the behaviour itself. Lastly, comparing Destinyâs behaviour to other gurus you mentionedâlike Joe Rogan or Alex Jonesâseems to overlook a key difference: consistency. Those gurus often behave in ways that contradict their statements regularly. In Destinyâs case, this set of concerning behaviours occurred during a highly emotional period and appears to be isolated rather than indicative of a broader pattern of manipulative or hypocritical behaviour. However, even if isolated, the behaviour is still troubling and deserves scrutiny.
Liz Tily
Destiny named himself Destiny. Thatâs at least 50 vibe points right there.
Mike Dawson
Well, I was joking⊠đ€š
pitiful_n00b
Such tieranny! đ± this was like Sam Harris right to reply 1 all over again. He really wasnât getting you.
Linda Sears
I admit to having a âteacherâs crushâ on Matt and Chris. As a nerdy kid who didnât get approval from my peers, I looked up to my teachers for guidance (not all of them, just the ones who were passionate or curious about learning). And I didnât like it when other kids made fun of the teacher I admired, so I understand your response, Will.
Tomek KrzesiĆski
I will once again remind everyone that Destiny had streets mapped out around the kidâs house and admitted he got a gun permit around that time and was âvery closeâ to doing it. I will also reiterate that hundreds of his fans are, to this day, arguing in favor of his right to do so. If a friend, regardless of how edgy he is, claimed there are circumstances where he should be able to rape a girl, argued that point for years, and admitted he actually tracked her route from work to home and, at that time, bought a ski mask and handcuffs, it would be extremely weird to keep chalking it up to just trolling/fantasizing. Because at what point could you then say there is genuine reason for concern? Is it when heâs in the bushes outside the house? Or maybe not even then, maybe he has to be directly in the house, hovering above the bed? If purchasing a gun, looking at escape routes, and admitting he was âvery closeâ is still not treated with some sort of gravity, then nothing short of him actually doing it would be. Itâs very frustrating because, at this point, if he said, âYou know, there was one day when I drove to his house and sat in my car with my gun because I knew he was in there alone,â Iâm still not sure whether youâd consider that trolling. I genuinely donât know, and I mean that sincerely. Itâs the one case where I feel like DtG has fallen for the same sort of guru dynamics that theyâre used to deconstructing. Like Dr. Kâs framing of the reprimand, Joe Roganâs âIâm just an idiot, donât listen to me,â or Alex Jonesâ 'entertainment' defense, the DDOS kid ('everything he ever said or admitted is just trolling') is just another example of a guruâs ability to effectively hand-wave a genuinely disturbing issue.
Linda Sears
Just started listening. Dan brought up the life coach aspect of Dr. K. Iâd like you and Matt to cover life coaches someday, particularly surrounding the ideas of manifesting your best self as this seems like secular guru territory.
Adam Sher
I think he just didn't like that Destiny and Hassan were the same on something.
Tim Crittenden
You must be kidding.
Graham Clarke
Managed 1h45m, couldnât take any more. That was painful.
Liz Tily
I had to google what a âstreamerâ was.
Said Polat
I kinda like Dan's suggestion for the Gurometer to have some positive attributes as saving graces. I don't think he fully understands the Gurometer but that makes his perspective especially useful because it represents a lot of people's first impressions of the DTG.
Adam Sher
I felt called out as an old too. Oh well
David Noble
Hasan and Destiny should stay relatively the same, if not worse for Destiny. Stay strong Chris!
Liz Tily
I dislike this guest. His New England whiny yell talking was hard to listen to. He has a mansplaining vibe. Also, Iâm typically a listen only person maybe bc Iâm old probably bc Iâm listen while distance running. 48, is that old? The gurometer has artistic nuances from human personality and he canât grasp that.
Password1234!
For sure, he seems too focused on a positive vs negative valency of the overall scale, as opposed to a (vibe based) aggregate score on the specific concept of secular guru-ism. Despite him highlighting that he likes psychometrics, he doesn't seem to grasp the importance of domain definitions and the isolation of concepts. Though to be fair, he does point out that he only has a high school diploma.
RipleyV
Streamer brain. They're obsessed with social comparison (no offense to Dan)
Unfitforpurpose
It gets better about 5 minutes in.
Unfitforpurpose
You can just be a fan of someone without getting into the guruish follower dynamics.
Ben
In the first few minutes, Dan's volume is so much lower than Chris's. Does this get fixed? If I turn my speakers up to hear Dan, when Chris talks he's BLASTING!
Kristen Cartmer
Haven't listened yet, but just wanted to say that I love you are doing this. I've become quite fond of Dan đ
Christopher Kavanagh
I didnât notice that, seemed fine to me!
James P.
Dan does not understand the podcast lol. And why is he so fixated on the tier list
Will
Interesting you say this. Chris & Matt don't do anything to cultivate a guru-follower dynamic or do any of the guru-y moves, but I do wonder if some people treat them as gurus, regardless.
Cameron Buff
When 2 world's collide
Mike Dawson
Chris, I find myself getting my back up when this guy says something even slightly disparaging about your processes⊠are you my secular guru??
Brendan Smith
I'm half way through and really struggling to listen to this guy, does anyone know if the second half is at all different and worth sticking with?
S Alexandra
I felt a tiny sympathetic gut punch for Chris with the suggestion that DtGâs Hassan chat was surface level đ Itâs better for everyoneâs sanity to limit scope because itâs pretty concentrated stuff
S Alexandra
Iâm enjoying this chat and Danâs perspective, though it differs from mine in a few ways. Iâd push back on the doctors being âin constant panic modeâ about their practice. Things like therapeutic relationships / conflict of interest are very well defined in practice and legal precedent. Thatâs what is so concerning about Dr Kâs behaviour. But Iâm speaking from Aus which doesnât have the same litigious culture in medicine as US
Adam Sher
Or he thinks you posted this to get subs and money and he is giving you advice on how to do that better. I don't think I get streamers, still.
Adam Sher
His criticism of your tier list makes me think he doesn't understand what DtG is or he wants it to be something else.
Mark K
âIf my answers frighten you then you should cease asking scary questions.â
Mark K
Dan kept cutting you off, Chris. Lack of respect for the guest. Needs a lesson in turn taking.
Charlie Friedberg
Im calling this dr k pt 4
Kerena
Thanks Chris! Some of us have yardwork and dishes to do :) Have a nice flight.
Christopher Kavanagh
There is x2 on the video here but will convert and upload when not on a plane.
Tim Crittenden
Dan behaving like a normal adult?
Andrew Ferguson
I was hoping you and Dan would talk about this. Great cross over
James P.
Oh, you said unstructured. Well the point stands.
Michael
I would desire. 2x speed through earbuds is how I roll (no offense, as I think you are worthy of 1x. Just not all the time)
James P.
Yes uncultured pls
Christopher Kavanagh
I can convert to audio and upload if desired.
Michael
Are we going to get this in our podcast RSS feeds?
