Douglas Miller
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MiP B2 Chapter 7: Advanced Mage Principles
🕑 Added 2024-05-15 20:40:25 +0000 UTC<< First | < Previous | Next >
Carlos smiled in amusement as he watched Trinlen hurriedly skim through his notes. The young academy-trained mage was muttering under his breath. "Advanced mage soul structures, where did I list those… I did put them in the list, right? Come on… Ah!" He slammed a finger onto the right spot on the page and looked up triumphantly. "Sorry, I put them in a side note because I thought you wouldn't be able to make any."
He sat forward on the edge of his chair and put his notebook on the small table between them, his hand holding it open. "Okay, what did you say you already have soul structures for, again? I think you mentioned casting without precise speech?"
Carlos nodded. "Yes, and we expect it will eventually allow casting silently, without speaking at all. The other one is for learning spells as sequences of the individual incantation words. There's more to it than that, really, but it's a bit complex to explain in full, and also a house secret."
"That first one sounds like the spell activator the academy teaches. Not too surprising, since Sandaras at least mentioned in his book that its effects are possible, even if he didn't go into details about it like for the four basic mage structures. Sounds like you got it right, too; good job avoiding the mistake of having it stop at just letting your speech be unclear." Trinlen cocked his head. "Learning spells as sequences of the words… That sounds kind of like the spell conceptualizer, but different?"
Carlos shrugged, then got out a notebook and pencil of his own. "Different enough that the noble mage who inspected us to verify our soul rank declared it as simply an unknown structure. Now, what exactly does a spell conceptualizer do?"
"Well, you know how you have to hold the full and complete concept in your mind of every detail of what a spell does in order to learn it?" Trinlen paused momentarily for Carlos and Amber to nod. "Just doing that normally is fine for simple spells like the example ones, but if you want to learn anything more complex, it quickly gets to the point of overwhelming your mental capacity. Imagine holding the concept of the Light spell's sustained loop in your mind, but four copies of it at once, each with a different effect, and they're all linked together in specific ways."
Carlos frowned, absorbed in thought, but Amber hesitated only briefly before speaking. "I think I might be able to manage that normally, but yes, it would be difficult, and I take it that many spells go much farther than that."
Carlos chuckled before Trinlen could answer. "If incantations get anywhere near as big and convoluted as some of the similar things I know, you have no idea how much of an understatement that is." Windows has how many millions of lines of code, again?
Trinlen raised an eyebrow at Carlos. "I'm curious what you're referring to, but I don't know if it's relevant. In any case, a spell conceptualizer soul structure helps with learning complex spells, expanding your capacity to hold the full details of large and complex incantation concepts in your mind. It's almost essential for any truly advanced spellcraft, but it doesn't have synergy with much, aside from the spell database, and I know that's important for nobles. I'm not sure how those considerations compare for you; you might have to forgo it in favor of something with more synergies."
Carlos finished scribbling a few notes and looked back up. "Our spell linker - I'll be astonished if you figure out enough details from the name to duplicate it - helps with the same problem, but in a different way that also has other benefits and more synergies. Its benefit for this particular issue is limited, though, so we might still have to make something extra to fully solve it. Ideally, we'll find a different approach that solves the problem at least as well while also having more synergy. We'll have to think about that."
He wrote a quick extra note and focused back on Trinlen. "I think we probably will not use a spell conceptualizer, at least not with the specific concept of it that you described, but the issue it's designed to address is an important one. So, thank you for bringing the issue to our attention. In fact, that's probably a good general principle - even if the solution that you know is not a good one for us, any problem important enough for the academy to teach a solution for it is a problem that we probably need to know about and address. So teach us about the problem, explain the solution you know, and we'll figure out how we want to solve it."
"Got it, makes sense." Trinlen nodded. "Going with that principle, the next major problem is in controlling complex spells after learning and casting them. As I recall, at least a few of the beginner spells I gave you have a parameter you can mentally adjust afterward. Easy enough to manage so far, but what if you cast a spell that has a dozen such parameters?"
"Right, and also what if the parameter value you want is difficult to adequately visualize? I've had some difficulty with that issue already." Carlos huffed a little and shook his head. Visualizing Captain Granlan being flattened into a human pancake just to get him to within reach of the ground was more extreme than I expected to need.
Trinlen blinked and cocked his head. "Really? How did you have powerful enough mana for an effect of that kind of magnitude? I've heard of mages having issues with that, and I was going to mention it, but I thought it only ever comes up above level 20 or 30!"
Carlos looked at Amber. She looked back for a moment, then shrugged and shook her head, smiling and slightly shaking with suppressed laughter. Carlos faced Trinlen again. "Would you believe I'm just that bad at visualizing things?"
Trinlen laughed. "You realize you're just making me even more curious, right?"
Carlos gave a long sigh. "Yeah. Okay, serious talk. I did something that I strongly suspected might have bad side effects, but I had no idea what the side effects might be. Well, I found out what the side effects are, and they are very, very bad. I'm fortunate that the consequences weren't even worse, and that they affected an area that I could leave, rather than affecting me personally. Even so, it's bad enough that I intend to never tell anyone. Not even my own future children. I will take that secret to my grave, unless I find an even better way to ensure it never gets used again, by anyone. Do not ask, do not try to figure it out, and if you think you might have discovered it, then tell me and ask for confirmation of whether you're right." He gazed levelly straight at Trinlen's eyes. "Trinlen, I am not messing around with this. You have no idea how dangerous that particular secret can be." We're all mages seeking to master incantation spellcasting. Draining power from the system that makes incantation spells work is Bad News.
Trinlen gulped and slowly nodded. His voice was uncharacteristically quiet and subdued. "Okay. I can be serious when I need to be. I'll drop it." He took a deep breath. "Back to the main topic at hand, the academy teaches a spell controller soul structure to help handle such adjustable parameters. The prime example of a spell it's important for is Adaptable Multipart Telekinesis. You can have a dozen or more things that you're moving in different ways at the same time, and it can get overwhelming if you want to do anything at all sophisticated with them. Move all dozen-plus things two feet straight up at the same time? Sure, no problem. Bring all of them together into a central point to stack up into a bundle? Something will go flying in a wrong direction if you don't have a spell controller."
Carlos finished a few more lines of notes, then read them over again while touching a hand to his chin. "Hmm. The problem is definitely an important one, and we don't have a good solution for it yet. We have one thing that might help, but I don't think it will help enough."
Amber nodded while looking at her own notes. "Yeah. Structure number 10, right? It's only relevant at all because of how general-purpose it is. We'll need something actually intended for this specifically. Synergies could be an issue…"
Carlos nodded. The 10th structure we made was the reflex improver, and that is what I thought of. "A lot depends on what we learn from Lorvan next. Too many details we don't know yet about how new synergies work for us now. Anyway, are there any other known considerations for spell controller details?"
Trinlen hesitated. "Hmm. I think we should have a talk about synergies at some point. It was not a major topic at the academy, and maybe if you teach me more about the general principles, I could help think of ways to apply them. Aside from that, I think coordinating more things and handling greater extremes covers it."
He glanced down at his notes again and moved his finger to the next line. "So, next up is the problem of someone or something interfering with your spells or disrupting them. Whether it's another mage casting a Dispel, a mystic with an anti-spells soul structure, or more specific like someone trying to freeze what you're trying to burn, it's one of the most generally intractable problems a mage can encounter. When someone's trying to put a sword through your chest, you have all kinds of options; block with a barrier, break the sword, trip the enemy, trick them with an illusion, fly out of reach, and so on. When someone's breaking your spells, chances are they'll just break whatever spell you try to fix things with too. To prevent that, or at least make it more difficult, there's the spell reinforcer."
Carlos paused halfway through writing a note. "You mentioned 'Dispel.' That's a spell to outright destroy an existing target spell, right? Are there any spells to tamper with other spells, leaving the target spell intact but changing its effect in some way?"
Trinlen pressed his lips together and considered. "Hmm. Not many. That kind of interference is complicated. For anything but the most trivially simple of spells, you'd almost have to custom design a separate spell for each specific spell you want to tamper with like that, if it's even possible. You'd also be dealing with the difficulty of affecting someone else's invested essence."
Sounds similar to computer hacking. Changing a program's behavior usually requires extremely specific and customized alterations, and even the tiniest possible difference from what you expect can render a hack ineffective. Carlos wrote a brief note about the similarity. "Alright, I think I understand what I need about that one. What else?"
"Well, those are all the ones that I have, myself. Some people make something to improve specific types of spells, like a soul structure to improve mana manipulation for fire spells." Trinlen shrugged. "I figure, if you're going to specialize like that, why are you bothering with learning how to be a mage? The whole point of spellcasting is to have versatility in addition to being powerful!"
Amber laughed. "I would love to see you explain that to all the kids I grew up with! Not a one of them understood why I considered versatility worth all the reading and classes I'd have to do."
"Then I hope you're as disgusted as I am about the classes that teach non-mage soul structure concepts as potential backup options for when you don't have a suitable spell ready." Trinlen snorted. "What kind of self-respecting mage has a body-strengthening soul structure?" He sighed. "There are other mage-oriented soul structures in the academy's curriculum, but I'd have to go and look them up. The main thing I remember about them is that I assessed all of them as being either too general-purpose, and therefore weak, or too narrowly specific. I didn't want to risk making something that might effectively take up the space of two soul structures because of too little synergy."
"Why am I not surprised that the academy does not teach the precise details of how much synergy is necessary?" Carlos dryly remarked. "Alright, if that's all for advanced mage soul structures, what about the capabilities and limitations of spellcasting incantations in general?"
"Capabilities, well, um… That's a rather long list."
"I am well aware of that." Carlos refrained from mentioning that he actually had the complete list of all effect keywords. I've been at it for days, and still haven't finished reviewing that list.
"So, limitations, then." Trinlen squared his shoulders and took a deep breath. "The most major limitation is that a lot of things that may seem like they should be simple - and even are simple to do with a full soul structure - are instead incredibly complex to do with an incantation. For example, finding a path to go somewhere. Making a soul structure to find paths for you is easy. Just think about exploring and searching for a path, and informing you about what it finds, and that's it.
"Making a spell to find a path for you, though? You have to lay out in extreme detail how to explore, how to track the path it's explored, how to recognize obstacles and barriers, when to give up on one route and how to choose a different one to explore, and… Ugh. The first time I read that spell, it was a headache, even with all the explanatory annotations." Trinlen shuddered. "It's the spell that convinced me about the necessity of a spell conceptualizer."
Carlos smirked. "Believe it or not, I already know all about that kind of issue." Heh. Pathfinding is almost as old hat as standard programming algorithms get! I bet that spell is poorly optimized, too, and making a new one with an A-star search algorithm will blow their minds.
"I'll… take your word for it." Trinlen's face was twitching, like he wanted to raise an eyebrow in curiosity but his frown of revulsion kept pulling it back down. He finally shook his head and continued. "Anyway. Secondary limitations. Spells can be dispelled, dispersed, or broken, where soul structures cannot. Or at least, breaking a soul structure is a whole lot harder. The effect of a soul structure can potentially be broken in similar fashion to a spell, but that generally only applies when the effect is external to yourself, and even then the soul structure typically can renew or replace the effect."
"Right. Seems obvious, even if I'm not sure whether I've thought about it so explicitly before."
Trinlen nodded. "This next one might seem similarly obvious, but to make it explicit: while there are spells to increase strength, toughness, etc., any spell to improve yourself will never be as effective as a soul structure made for the same purpose. The difference isn't about power, but rather the inherence and permanence of a soul structure's connection to you from it being literally part of you. That improves efficiency in ways no spell could ever match." He took a deep breath. "And that's all the really noteworthy limitations I can think of. In terms of theoretical capability, at least; the practicalities of learning the right spells for everything you want to do are an entirely different matter."
Carlos put his pencil down and shook out his hand. "Alright. I think that's a good point to wrap up the first lesson. Next time, we can dig into the details of incantation design." He briefly shifted mental focus to his bond with Purple, directing a message to be relayed to Trinlen. [You can contact us telepathically through Purple for any brief questions about what lesson material to prepare.]
Trinlen jerked in startlement at the telepathic message, then smiled and sent one back. [Got it!]
Carlos looked over to the young woman beside him. "Amber?"
"Hmm?" Amber looked up from her notes, which she was reading through and adding sidenotes to. "Oh. Yes, we have what we need from Trinlen on this topic. Now we just need an in-depth explanation from Lorvan of the second stage to combine with it. Time to call him in for that?"
Carlos nodded. "If anything, that conversation is overdue."
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Comments
Person
What kind of ping do you think they'll get over STP? Bandwidth?
Maakolo
He has the comprehension aid to help with that, as well as Purple, and he can also make a soul structure to analyse and simulate the body.
Bryan L
I like the idea but the problem is that Carlos is a programmer not a Dr or Pre-Med. The reason he's so effective is knowledge from our world. I doubt their world has any concept of molecular biology....
Dan Chadwick
This function could be one of purples functions, amplifying the telepathy they now share...
Dan Chadwick
Fascinating thought... analog for visual: the soul structure conceptualize structures the spell as a plant. The effect part is as the plant structure above ground, and the body strengthening part is the roots the spell needs to anchor to the castor... having a strong body synergies with strong spells.
Dan Chadwick
Oh! You mean spells which have been cast being stored until needed only requiring activation... I believe the "Help compendium " Carlos discovered goes a long way to sourcing that need.
viperfan7
He tries to post every week, but lately he's been having some personal issues. Hope he's ok
Timo Geerties
I haven't been with this story for long. Is it supposed to be a weekly release or every two weeks?
BarGamer
The level above Orichalcum is Carlos. ;)
Morten Bork
I love this story. I am super concerned about the recent delays however. If you get it back on track, I will come back.
Dwarf_King
If there is a maximum of spells you can have prepared at any one time. A suitable soul structure would be a storage for said prepared spells. But since Trinlen didn't mention it for the advanced souls structures the academy teaches I don't think that it is necessary.
Maakolo
Those are specifics that can be done with the spoul structure I described above. The one for modifying the body
George
So, the path finding example demonstrates that a soul structure acts as an extension of your will/consciousness doing the task the way you would think it, while a spell can only do what it is programmed to do. Now I'm wondering if there could be some sort of soul structure specifically to spin off that same effect to control the adjustable variables on the fly to achieve the same effect. I don't know how the standard spell controller structure works, but I bet it doesn't work like that. Handing over a spell like that to the structure to just handle each variable the way you would want to if you had the time and attention to pay to it based on your current intent would be an excellent way to handle the problem. If that's possible, you could readily prepare some super flexible spells that have a ton of adjustable variables and it would just handle the details to get the result you expected.
George
A good way to get started with all of that would be adding a physical/biological version of the introspector and debugger. The existing comprehension aid should have no problem synergizing with those, and they would synergize with any other specialized physical enhancement structures, as well as improving the ability to accurately conceptualize those structures (and synergies between them) in the first place. And if further tier advancements work the way I think they do, you could do the same thing again for the mind after that.
BarGamer
I wanna make a spell-controller-based spell with Adaptable Multipart Telekinesis called Magnet: Attract all the sharp pointy objects (maybe missed or deflected daggers) and bundle them into a single point, centered on my opponent. Haftel would LOVE that spell! "Ha! You're finally out of daggers!" "I cast Magnet." *SPLORCH*
Jambles
Oh, I was just saying you /could/ get that detailed. Might not make for particularly interesting storytelling. Possibly something they could help a specialist design, where I think the main duo is more focused on casting and relatively little of that would synergize well enough or be worthwhile for them to make in their own souls.
BarGamer
Internal consistency for me. You can only push fantasy so far before you start getting into "Not enough memory in Disbelief."
BarGamer
Uhoh, are we going from technomancy High Fantasy to being yet another Cultivator fic? XD
BarGamer
Spell: Format Trostral's C:/ For that matter, "Format aborted, you do not have sufficient permissions." For that OTHER matter, High Lady Assessor basically did a Scan C:/ Is there a Defrag? Is the dead zone just a bad sector? I forgot what the command is for fixing a bad sector, but if so, deliberately creating a dead zone could be weaponized. Hell, allowing your opponent to lure you into one, then restoring it could be a nice sneak-attack.
Jambles
If you wanted to focus on specific kinds of movement, you could even go as far as to alter the geometry of different parts of the body to make yourself more efficient at, say, sprinting, by lengthening the foot, shortening the thighs, altering where ligaments and tendons attach.
Jambles
You could go about strengthening in two ways and use either or both: 1) Directly applying force through magic or reinforcing joints, ligaments, bones, etc, or 2) using magic to enhance the function and recovery of the existing structures so it becomes very easy to build strength and fitness the old-fashioned way.
Jambles
A structure that monitors the available molecular resources throughout the body and a structure to distribute resources where they're needed for specific activities. Maybe one that anticipates those needs and calculates efficient distribution pathways to make sure things get where they're needed in time to avoid as much non-soul-structure work as possible.
Jambles
Honestly, it wouldn't be too complicated to make oneself functionally immortal by utilizing mana or essence or aether or w/e to enhance functions like autophagy, regulate hgh and insulin functions, clear out free radicals and potentially bypass the otherwise necessary inflammatory processes that create them etc. etc. You could then also supercharge the process of ATP production by messing with the Cori cycle and give yourself basically infinite stamina as long as your fuel stores last, enhance the ability of your body to process and utilize oxygen etc. The more you understood the energy systems of the body and how the gastrointestinal sytems and such functioned, the more granular you could make the process of body enhancement. Maybe add in a process which reinforces energy stores by utilizing the aether around you and reduce your need to eat. There's an absolutely massive amount of detail that could go into the process of body enhancement, and a lot of it would have unexpected knock-on effects that would be pretty cool to explore.
Maakolo
Most important IMO is the ability to cultivate more than just his soul.
Maakolo
Ive had this idea that they could build a fully synergistic system of soul structures if they imagined their first tier as the improvement of the brain or parts of the brain, nervous system and magical "limbs". If the tiers work I how I expect then it wouldnt be a problem to dedicate a tier entirely to body strengthening. It would synergize with the core soul structure and wouldnt need to synergize with the mage specific stuff to achieve full synergy anyway. With body strenghtening I mean permanent strengthening rather than short term buffs. Essentially they could have a soul structure for improving already existing organs (basically allows them to use mana to improve organs like muscles, bones, skin, etc. instead of just spending that mana on their soul), modifying the body (removing organs, rearranging organs, creating entirely new organs), something to simulate the body's functions so they dont accidentally kill themselves by modifying things, something to synergise magic with physical aspects (basically an interface between magic and the body). Maybe an additional soul structure to add supernatural effects onto their organs? (think witcher senses). Though that last one should probably be an extension of both the cultivation and modification ones. Or maybe it can have the effect of temporarily improving and modifying a function of the body in any required way. For example, if you want to track someone you just use this to synergise with the comprehension aid and memory, interface with your senses and it will analyse the input info for you and tell you which way to the tracks go. Also, something that allows him to use outside resources to enhance his body? Could also just make a special organ for that though, but I think that would be needlessly complicated and ineffective. Also, cant Carlos just make a mage structure to interface with the incantation system to just lock other out of it. Basically cutting or interfering with the connection between someone and the incantation system. Could be further enhanced to interfere with the connections of things with other things. Maybe make it possible to affect a defined area. Now that Carlos knows of the incantation system he should also understand that its not exactly true magic, so investing soul structure into the capability to use "true" magic, like dungeon cores, should at least be on his mind.
viperfan7
The dead zone
David
What area?
David
I feel like that would viably have synergy with everything too? As it just amplifies everything else to do with the spell by bringing it inside you... Right?
David
If it is "anything over orichalcum are members of the royal family" I'd love to see their reaction to Carlos and amber gaining that synergy and dealing with "are they royals or aren't they?" And the ramifications of "hey these are our cousins almost last in line(based on synergy's? Maybe they love up in Royal standing with more synergy?)" vs marrying them into the royal family to keep things secret and or folding their advancements into the royal family to try and contain the information and retain power... Politicing for sure in the future.
Douglas Miller
It is something that requires an extreme power advantage to do, especially if you want to do it quickly and/or to someone who is still able to fight back.
Jambles
Not sure if I like the fantasy more or the internal consistency.
Jambles
Sheeeesh, here's the theory-heavy writing I live for. Same reason I got so dragged-into the spider isekai light novels. The mechanics are deep and interesting. This is even better for that.
Josh
Brings new meaning to "AI Dungeon".
Josh
I wonder if there's nuance to "no similar structures"? Two of the same structure don't necessarily have synergy, because they are redundant. And it might be that two attempts to make something better in the same way don't stack. But what if two copies of the same structure are designed to work with each other in a way that only one copy can't? That said, it seems like one individual structure can get more and more powerful and dense. So it might be entirely unnecessary to have two copies, rather than having one copy that gets more and more powerful.
Dale
Seems like an upgrade of the comprehension aid
Dan Chadwick
I wonder if these consequences are related to Carlos discovery of inverse mana costs?
Dan Chadwick
I wonder if "this" is this concept Carlos was thinking of while Trinlen was discussing body strengthening and control structures...
Milridor
And then Purple can connect remotely to activate spells so Carlos doesn't have to
Carl Mason
I actually was wondering if they could make cross specialized soul structures so that they have primary casting assistance effects, and secondary effects that improve the body. A strengthening structure that works like the reinforcer but also applies to their bodies, an endurance structure that helps them eke out every drop of mana and brings every bit of potency out of that to keep them casting longer but also holds up their body, a general training enhancer that increases the effect of any training they undergo... double duty, triple if they can manage. Or a quasi-soul structure spell implementer that improves the effectiveness and efficiency of spells you place on yourself.
Hilton Janfield
Internal Materia!
Paweł P
Thanks for the chapter!
Person
Carlos is going to end up with an entire IDE built into his soul, maybe an OS.
Josh
When Carlos and Amber swore "on the integrity of my soul", they were told that the consequences were: > your soul structures will be broken; the mana layers around your soul will be siphoned off; and any remains of your soul shell will be stripped Which means this is a thing that magic or artifacts or similar can do. Which makes me wonder, is this a thing *offensive spells* can do? Is this something Carlos and Amber could *study* and figure out how to do to others, when in dire need?
Magoc
A socket server soul structure to allow connecting two different souls together to share soul structures!
Josh
Given that anyone with 10 soul structures at all is a noble, and anyone with full synergies between those has the top *named* rank of soul plan (at least, among what is publicly known), I'm wondering if the true answer is "we don't know how to do better than orihalcum and nobody with an orihalcum soul plan has managed to get any added synergies, do let us know if you figure it out". Or, alternatively, "the only people with synergies above orihalcum are members of the royal family".
Josh
> What kind of self-respecting mage has a body-strengthening soul structure? I wonder if a mind-strengthening soul structure (or more than one) could be the generalized version of the spell conceptualizer that has more synergies? Why *just* have a soul structure to make it easier to conceptualize *spells*; why not have a soul structure to make it easier to *conceptualize*? Or auxiliary short-term and long-term memory? Or literally *thinking faster*? All of those synergize with *everything*.
BigBro Bluesman
Did he ever go check that area
TeFiLeDo
Soul structure proposal: spell socket. A place to attach spells to oneself internally. It might amplify an attached spells potency, by closing the gap between.
Michael Wilson
Are they going to have to call in their favor with the royal house to find out how many stage 3 Lensmen^H^H^H^H soul structure nobles there are. When do the bonuses kick in for having max synergies a second time?
Marian Ch
Leave it to Carlos to introduce this realm to the beauty of computer viruses. Magic phishing, here we come!
viperfan7
I hope trinlen gets adopted into their house. He sounds like he'd be a perfect member of their house lol
SomeRandomGuy
Tftc!
MindWright
Good chapter. I'm a bit impressed by Carlos. I can implement Dijkstra's algorithm off the top of my head, but I'd be hard pressed to implement the optimizations of A* with just what I have stored upstairs.
Maurice Brown
See my comment in the last chapter about FSMs from runes.
Ddave
There's a lot of parallels between soul structures and FPGAs already. Limited capacity, packing density based on how well things mesh, etc. IMO the problem with soul structures dedicated to that is that you only get one before they end up running into the "no similar structures" rule.
Ddave
Hmmmm, looks like the multi-tasker addresses a lot of the synergy issues and shortcomings of the mage-oriented soul structures. Holding my breath to see if I end up being right.
Markell
Carlos: “Lemme introduce my favourite shortcut… Ctrl-alt-delete.”
Sven Frenzel
Soul structure FPGAs is a *really* interesting concept
pfreya
“The difference isn't about power, but rather the inherence and permanence of a soul structure's connection to you from it being literally part of you. That improves efficiency in ways no spell could ever match.” Oooh, wonder how feasible soul structure FPGAs would be 👀
TUSF
Overdue is an understatement lol
Frackinawsome
First
